D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[Tony Vargas]

But the wizards players want all the metamagics.

Just pointing out that everyone already has a few de-facto metamagics - Heighten is just built into how DCs are calculated. Empower/Maximize - damage scaling - is how a lot of up-casting works. Adding targets is how some other spells up-cast.
There's plenty of other potential metamagicks that could be handled, in some hypothetical 5e where metamagic wasn't a bone tossed exclusively to sorcerers, using the same basic up-casting mechanic, much as the feats did in 3e, either with or without feat preqs. It wouldn't be adding a lot of complexity or confusion or balance issues, since up-casting is already established.

 

[Aldarc]

I would not mind tossing Metamagic entirely out of the Sorcerer, and it's a small price to pay for all the people who actually want their Sorcerers to fulfill the class fantasy and not just handed the Wizard's discarded handouts. I don't recall it being anything that Sorcerer fans actually asked for or was wanting for the class. Don't give it to all casters though. Just toss it out entirely. No more Sorlocks.

 

[Minigiant]

Just pointing out that everyone already has a few metamagics - Heighten is just built into how DCs are calculated. Empower/Maximize - damage scaling - is how a lot of up-casting works. Adding targets is how some other spells up-cast.
There's plenty of other potential metamagicks that could be handled, in some hypothetical 5e where metamagic wasn't a bone tossed to sorcerers, using the same basic up-casting mechanic, much as the feats did in 3e, either with or without feat preqs. It wouldn't be adding a lot of complexity or confusion or balance issues, since up-casting is already established.

Sure.

But adding 2 metamagics to every spell that already has a upslot would increase the spell section of the PHB by 50%. Double it if you applied all of them

 

[SkidAce]

That's a distinction without a difference. "I was birn magical, I just had to take twenty years of wizard college tobcast my first cantrip!

I was trying to show that it varies with the stories. It might have taken 10 minutes to learn that first cantrip. Might have taken years.

But thats flavor. After all, when a wizard finds a new spell, it doesn't take years to learn.

(Lawrence Watt Evans??? wrote a story where the protagonist only learned one spell, even after lots of study, good read. (thy did eventually learn more))

Reading the excerpts from the player's handbook, it does mention years of study, but as an example. It also says you could have learned from a magical creature or etc.

 

[SkidAce]

For an example, I loved that 90's cartoon, and I remember the first episode where Jubilee is essentially disowned by her parents and hunted by giant monsters for (from her perspective) no reason. She hasn't done anything, why is she being punished.

But that story doesn't work if she needs to go out and find a teacher, or if she needs to devote years to research, because then she has dedication. She is seeking this power at the expense of other things. She made a choice, and while she may no like it, it was still a choice. But, as a mutant, she doesn't have a choice, she never decided to pursue power and gain all these enemies. And that is a story that the Sorcerer can have, and it is a powerful one. As shown by the fact that X-Men was built on these types of stories, and is wildly popular.

Good explanation.

 

[Tony Vargas]

(Lawrence Watt Evans??? wrote a story where the protagonist only learned one spell, even after lots of study, good read. (thy did eventually learn more))

Yes! One of the earlier books in the Ethshar series, which is admittedly (and obviously) influenced by D&D. (No memorization/preparation, but spells have levels, and wizards collect & learn them.)

 

[TheCosmicKid]

That's a distinction without a difference. "I was birn magical, I just had to take twenty years of wizard college tobcast my first cantrip!

In the aforementioned literature, it's usually more like "I was born magical, as a child I was responsible for all sorts of crazy magical occurrences, I just had to study hard to figure out how to do those things on command without being a danger to myself or others."

 

[MoonSong]

In the aforementioned literature, it's usually more like "I was born magical, as a child I was responsible for all sorts of crazy magical occurrences, I just had to study hard to figure out how to do those things on command without being a danger to myself or others."

You still have to drag a spellbook around?

 

[tetrasodium]

.
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You still have to drag a spellbook around?

No, it just took a long time for WotC to admit other settings exist ;D

I'd not be surprised if darksun includes options for spellbook knotwork beadwork & tattoos.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You still have to drag a spellbook around?

Not in the sources of inspiration they were alluding too, I don't think. Obviously, in D&D, until the Sorcerer - and barring outré spellbooks in alternate forms (like, oh, a Darkover matrix) - of course, you did.