D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[FrogReaver]

Is it Metamagic or Font of Magic that defines a Sorcerer?

For me it is Font of Magic, which is a woefully underutilized design space, though with promise on the horizon based off recent U/A entries.

So while I think Metamagic is fair game to add to the Wizard thru a subclass (Arcane Theurge anyone...easy to design subclasses in 5e).....Font of Magic is a red line for me.

Font of Magic should be Sorcerer only.

Font of Magic supports the sorcerers theme. I always lump it into metamagic even though it technically isn't.

That said, in terms of sorcerer class features - metamagic is like 3 of his 6 single classed features.

 

[MoonSong]

@MoonSong I'd rather wizard and sorcerer have different spells that were unique rather than a selection of must haves plus a meaningless assortment of spells that range from trap to niche or pointless. You and frog reaver keep bringing up the handful of wizard specific spells as if they are largely meaningful options & when pressed to justify it resort or character assassinations changing of the subject or simply pound the table as if the mere presence of any number of spells on the wizard but not sorcerer list is an argument in itself.

One, they are an argument. All of the really "magical" magic is in these spells. Can a sorcerer create a demiplane, no she can't, can she summon a magical mansion, again not, can she summon a small house? nop, a small room to rest in? nada, a magical pony? not at all, raise a zombie? ask again, she can't even summon a small kitten! And you tell me there's not theme or identity on these?

And two, 5e is all about recycling mechanics as much as possible. If sorcerer was to have a spell that fulfilled the same purpose as haste, gues what? she just gets haste. If you don't want her to use exactly haste, then she doesn't get to do anything remotely similar to it, period. -these spells are needed to fulfill x or y role in a party- That's why clerics freely poach the wizard list for domain spells. And it is far from a unique case, psion is going to use recycled spells for psionic powers too. Such is the reality of 5e.

 

[MoonSong]

So while I think Metamagic is fair game to add to the Wizard thru a subclass

Wizards already get metamagic, it is just not called that.

 

[tetrasodium]

Let me clear this up right here. In terms of mechanics:
The sorcerer shouldn't know as many spells as the wizard.
The sorcerer shouldn't be able to interchange spells from day to day like the wizard.
The sorcerer shouldn't have as large of a spell list as the wizard.
The sorcerer shouldn't be able to cast rituals.
The sorcerer shouldn't have an arcane traditon.

You really seem to be under the impression that sharing many of the same spells with a wizard and having metamagic is leaving the wizard with nothing. That's not the case.

And you are dismissing it - the wizards larger spell list is both a mechanical benefit and something that supports the wizard theme.

The warlock is significantly different from wizard on those points because it has so many fewer spell slots & even less spells known than sorcerer. The Sorcerer however thumbs its nose at them by having enough to still have the same must have/right spells that a wizard will have in play. On top of that sorcerer has the same ability to take arcana, a more valuable prime attribute, & the same meaningful/right/must have spells. Rituals are a half baked unfinished cocktail napkin of an idea that despite your beating of that drum largely do very little of value outside of a couple ok to useful spells. it results

One, they are an argument. All of the really "magical" magic is in these spells. Can a sorcerer create a demiplane, no she can't, can she summon a magical mansion, again not, can she summon a small house? nop, a small room to rest in? nada, a magical pony? not at all, raise a zombie? ask again, she can't even summon a small kitten! And you tell me there's not theme or identity on these?

And two, 5e is all about recycling mechanics as much as possible. If sorcerer was to have a spell that fulfilled the same purpose as haste, gues what? she just gets haste. If you don't want her to use exactly haste, then she doesn't get to do anything remotely similar to it, period. -these spells are needed to fulfill x or y role in a party- That's why clerics freely poach the wizard list for domain spells. And it is far from a unique case, psion is going to use recycled spells for psionic powers too. Such is the reality of 5e.

Nice of you to finally admit just how largely irrelevant to play the bits of wizard not stolen or copied by sorcerer areTiny hut, Magnificent mansion, Phantom steed, and the remnant of find familiar+Improved familiar not exclusively stolen by warlock are what you consider to be an identity & theme in play?

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Nice of you to finally admit just how largely irrelevant to play the bits of wizard not stolen or copied by sorcerer areTiny hut, Magnificent mansion, Phantom steed, and the remnant of find familiar+Improved familiar not exclusively stolen by warlock are what you consider to be an identity & theme in play?

So blasting is the only relevant part of play to you?

 

[MoonSong]

I'm not dismissing it, I'm asking you to justify why it is relevant to the fact that you & @MoonSong have argued that sorcerer should be everything wizard but with social skills minus spellbook & extra stuff that is mechanically meaningful in play or capable of justifying the raiding & copying of everything in the wizard's. so again I ask you to justify the relevance rather than continuing to admit you were parroting an empty strawman of a point that can not be inflated with anything meaningful to support your desire.

Spells aren't markers of identity, they are the tools needed to fulfill a role in the party. Why do Bards and Druids get cure wounds and healing word instead of a custom spell? because they are meant to be able to fulfill the role of healer and these two spells are the tools to fill that role. Why does sorcerer get so many spells the wizard gets too? because she is meant to fill some of the roles wizard fills. She is not meant to fill all of them, and isn't meant to fill only them, never all of them with the same character and specially not at the same time. Wizard? wizard is meant to fill all of these roles with the same character, just at different times.

 

[tetrasodium]

Spells aren't markers of identity, they are the tools needed to fulfill a role in the party. Why do Bards and Druids get cure wounds and healing word instead of a custom spell? because they are meant to be able to fulfill the role of healer and these two spells are the tools to fill that role. Why does sorcerer get so many spells the wizard gets too? because she is meant to fill some of the roles wizard fills. She is not meant to fill all of them, and isn't meant to fill only them, never all of them with the same character and specially not at the same time. Wizard? wizard is meant to fill all of these roles with the same character, just at different times.

While true, that role heavily contributes to identity & none of those spells you finally admitted to talking about amount to much of a role Bards druids & clerics bring significant class specific abilities to the table beyond just the spell list... Sorcerer is problematic because it does not, it steals & copies too much from wizard to just tack "but improved" onto wizard.

 

[FrogReaver]

The warlock is significantly different from wizard on those points because it has so many fewer spell slots & even less spells known than sorcerer.

No one is talking about the crappy warlock.

The Sorcerer however thumbs its nose at them by having enough to still have the same must have/right spells that a wizard will have in play. On top of that sorcerer has the same ability to take arcana, a more valuable prime attribute, & the same meaningful/right/must have spells. Rituals are a half baked unfinished cocktail napkin of an idea that despite your beating of that drum largely do very little of value outside of a couple ok to useful spells. it results

I actually love rituals but since you want specific spells. Let's look at a level 5 sorcerer and a level 5 wizard. Now I want you to fill the sorcerers list out with all the must have wizard spells he can take that you are talking about. Then I will pick those spells and spells the sorcerer doesn't have for the wizard. Let's see what you're missing out on.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Font of Magic supports the sorcerers role. I always lump it into metamagic even though it technically isn't.

Why wouldn’t you, the D&D design team buried the lead!
Sorcerers have the better subclasses, most drip with flavor...( not all...cough, Divine Soul).

I love the book, Jack of Shadows by Roger Zelazny, and the Shadow Sorcerer nails it.
All ‘10’s by the judges, even the East German Judge.

I’m not sure how to roleplay a Conjurer Wiz....the school has no readily accessible theme. Same for the Transmuter, the Druid is a better Transmuter, Master of Form than the Transmuter.

A school of magic is not an evocative basis to form a character identity, (the Evocation school is of course literally exempt from that statement), just as having a mythological, aquatic figure tossing a scimitar at one’s head is no basis for a government.

Wild Mage, Shadow Sorcerer...ideas of how to play it just spring to mind. Which is why after the novelty factor of Specialist Wizards wore off, people in my corner of 2e stopped playing them. Too boring, too restrictive in concept.

 

[MoonSong]

The warlock is significantly different from wizard on those points because it has so many fewer spell slots & even less spells known than sorcerer.

The warlock has significatively more spells known than a sorcerer, the warlock caps at 19 + any invocation/spells that he chooses.