Once, Twice, Three times a Daily

[Dausuul]

Here's another approach, which could work for fighter-types: Each round, select 2-3 powers at random which you can use till the end of that round. The idea is that you know a bunch of attack maneuvers, and you're spotting opportunities to use them. You can't predict those opportunities, nor can you hold them for later--you've got to take them as they come.

 

[Kynn]

A preferable system is what 4E already does for recharge. Roll a dice to determine if the power is recharged. Any system that minimizes bookkeeping and replaces it with a quick die roll (like 4E saving throws) tends to be preferable.

This would slow the game down even more, because players wouldn't be able to pre-plan their moves at all. (Some don't do it anyway, and that's a problem now; this idea makes it works.)

 

[KarinsDad]

This would slow the game down even more, because players wouldn't be able to pre-plan their moves at all. (Some don't do it anyway, and that's a problem now; this idea makes it works.)

Sure they could.

They roll the recharge at the end of their last turn.

Problem solved.

 

[variant]

I am not a fan of putting another random number generation in the game.

 

[TwoSix]

In the later days of 3e, before the announcement of 4e, I was playing around with a spell slot system inspired by the maneuvers in the Book of Nine Swords. Essentially, spellcasters had access to a small number of slots which they could use to store prepared spells. Casters could automatically refill all their spells slots between encounters, or could make an attempt to re-fill one spell slot during an encounter by spending a standard action and making a successful skill check. Because spellcasters could regain spells so easily, the key limitations on them were a much smaller pool of spells known and spell slots available at any one time.

Although I was focused on traditional fire-and-forget magic, I thought the spell slot system could also be used to limit the number of active spells any one spellcaster could maintain simultaneously by requiring any spell that had a duration to occupy a spell slot until the spell was terminated.

A slot system could also be used for what Andor calls focus abilities: those that grant a small bonus (like a spell with a duration) until they are expended to create a more significant effect (like a fire-and-forget spell), and the small bonus is lost until the slot is re-filled.

You could even generalize a slot system to represent more than spells. A fighter's precision strike stance which grants a +1 bonus to attack rolls could occupy a slot. A barbarian's fury could grant him a +2 bonus to damage rolls until he expends it to gain a +2d6 bonus to the damage roll of a single attack.

Mind you, in my view, a slot system like what I mentioned is pretty much a backdoor encounter power system, and those who dislike encounter powers, for whatever reason, may not like it on that basis alone.

You could use the same spell slot system to use Bo9S style manuevers as well. Warlock invocations could use up 1 or more slots. Binding a vestige could take up several slots, but give you multiple bonuses and at-will powers.

And then, once you realize a power is a power, and you can trade them in and out with no loss of functionality, 4e's power progression starts to make a lot more sense.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think this is a design issue.

Actions should be limited by circumstance, capacity and resources, not a generic mimsy pimsy "but you can't". If there is a believable reason for not being able to do something, I'm all over it but if it is only "but you've already done that today", then that is weak sauce and where the games mechanics are trying to overly inform the fiction of play rather than the other way around.

I know x/day makes it easier but I still believe such things are pretty lame.

I tend to agree, with the caveat that for me a believable reason has always been the supernatural. Vancian magic doesn't bother me, it is believable enough to me. So are other supernatural things like turn undead, ki powers, other divine-powered abilities, and occasionally uncanny luck (e.g. a race's ability to reroll one dice 1/day).

But when the ability is not supernatural enough, then my suspension of disbelief starts to shake. Barbarian rage is still something I can take, only because it is intrinsecally exhausting, but that's as far as I can go. This is why I haven't managed to tolerate martial-powered dailies

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I tend to agree, with the caveat that for me a believable reason has always been the supernatural. Vancian magic doesn't bother me, it is believable enough to me. So are other supernatural things like turn undead, ki powers, other divine-powered abilities, and occasionally uncanny luck (e.g. a race's ability to reroll one dice 1/day).

I suppose different players have different limits in this regard. I'm with you though that supernatural effects give more believability leeway. I'd still like to see a reason though why a limitation is in place... I suppose I just like the details. Limiting martial pursuits (read "mundane" or non-supernatural) by circumstance seems a better way of doing it to me.

But when the ability is not supernatural enough, then my suspension of disbelief starts to shake. Barbarian rage is still something I can take, only because it is intrinsecally exhausting, but that's as far as I can go. This is why I haven't managed to tolerate martial-powered dailies

I can understand how people explain such things in their games but I'm with you on this one. I need the fiction of the game and the mechancs representing it to be neatly in accord. Non-supernatural "dailies" that don't take nearly a full day to perform kind of autofail this.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Dragonblade]

There are two big issues with daily resources for me. Aside from an exception for Vancian casting, X per day abilities need to be purged from 5e.

First of all, its pervasiveness across so many classes is the reason the game has a 15 MAD problem in the first place. Get rid of X per day class abilities, and the only other resource management issue you have to solve is health recovery.

X per day abilities also represent a murky break point between player controlled resource recovery and DM controlled narrative space. Players need to recover resources that are vital to the functioning of their class, but it impedes on the DMs control of the narrative space. So you get this sort of unsatisfactory tug of war between some players and the DM or even players and other players. Some people need to recover, but the narrative cost in verisimilitude can be so high that some players and DMs don't like paying it.

Second of all, the mechanic itself is verisimilitude breaking. So much so, that even I, who leans far towards the gamist side of things, scratch my head when the self-professed simulationists embrace it so much. I can only imagine that the strategic management aspect of it that they like is what allows them to hold their nose in respect to its awful metagame implications.

So my barbarian raged 12 hours ago, but despite a whole day of doing nothing, he still can't rage again until those magic 24 hours pass? Or my paladin already used up his allotment of divine power for the day so he is just stuck now? Apparently deities treat miracles like drink tickets at the company Christmas Party...

Technically, yes, this covers everything, but only because you threw in the catch-all "Conditional." You could get rid of all the other options and just have "Conditional" and "At-Will." A Daily power is a Conditional power where the condition is "You have not used this power since your last extended rest." An Encounter power is the same for short rests. An Always On power is an At-Will with an ongoing duration.

However, I don't see why the Daily, Encounter, and Always On conditions should be given special prominence while everything else is crammed into the catch-all. Some other usage limits that deserve note:

• Power Points. You have a number of "power points" that you spend to fuel your abilities. Once you run out, you're out, until you recharge in some way.
• Tokens. Similar to power points, but you get more each time some event occurs in combat (you get hit, you hit an opponent, etc.). Yes, the Iron Heroes version was too fiddly, but it could be streamlined.
• Threshold. You can only use the ability once some event or series of events has occurred (you become bloodied, you kill an opponent, etc.). After you hit the threshold, you can use the ability for the rest of combat.
• Triggered. When a certain event occurs, you can use the ability in response, but you have to do it right then--you can't hold it for later.
• Material Components. You must expend some long-term material resource, such as cash or charges from a magic item, to power the ability.
• Cast From Life. You must weaken yourself in some way to power the ability. This could mean imposing a temporary condition such as weakened or slowed; sacrificing hit points, surges, or Constitution points; etc.

I dare say there are others. Those are just the ones I thought of.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some of these mechanics are front-loaded (daily, encounter, power points, material components, cast from life), others are back-loaded (tokens, threshold), and others are neither (at-will, triggered, always on). Front-loaded mechanics use a resource that you have a lot of when combat starts, and spend down as the fight continues. Back-loaded mechanics use a resource that you have little or none of when combat starts, but accumulate as the fight continues.

D&D has long favored front-loaded mechanics. This is a problem because front-loaded mechanics are bad for pacing and encourage "nova tactics." At the start of the fight, everyone unloads their big guns, and one of two things happens. One, the battle ends right there, which is often unsatisfying and anticlimactic. Two, the battle does not end, and everyone has to slug it out with the little guns, which easily descends into grind.

I would like to see 5E use a mix of front-loading and back-loading. With back-loaded mechanics, the intensity of combat builds rather than falling off; as the fight progresses, bigger and bigger guns come out, and combat ends with a bang rather than a whimper. That's not to say front-loaded mechanics should go away entirely, but there should be less of them.

I'd also like to give a shout out to this post. I hate the front loaded nova effect in D&D. I would love for a more backloaded resource recovery model where players can unlock more powerful abilities and attacks as a battle progresses.

This is a model you frequently see in anime, and I love it. I'm sure the haters will come out against anything anime. But battles that escalate dramatically the longer it goes on are far more exciting to me then the typical D&D combat model of PCs blowing their big attacks in the first couple of rounds and then grinding away with minor attacks the rest of the way.

 

[FireLance]

There are two big issues with daily resources for me. Aside from an exception for Vancian casting, X per day abilities need to be purged from 5e.

...

Second of all, the mechanic itself is verisimilitude breaking. So much so, that even I, who leans far towards the gamist side of things, scratch my head when the self-professed simulationists embrace it so much. I can only imagine that the strategic management aspect of it that they like is what allows them to hold their nose in respect to its awful metagame implications.

So my barbarian raged 12 hours ago, but despite a whole day of doing nothing, he still can't rage again until those magic 24 hours pass? Or my paladin already used up his allotment of divine power for the day so he is just stuck now? Apparently deities treat miracles like drink tickets at the company Christmas Party...

Really, when you read "daily", read it as "recovers after an extended rest", or whatever the terminology is in 5e, instead of reading it as "recovers at exactly midnight" or "recovers 24 hours after using the ability".

As for the paladin, "rationing" of miracles occurs for (Vancian) divine spells as well. The paladin needing to meditate and pray to regain divine abilities is no different from the cleric needing to mediate and pray to regain divine spells.

 

[Dragonblade]

As for the paladin, "rationing" of miracles occurs for (Vancian) divine spells as well. The paladin needing to meditate and pray to regain divine abilities is no different from the cleric needing to mediate and pray to regain divine spells.

Right, I don't think clerics should have to prepare their spells. I know thats how its always been done, but its never made sense to me that divine casters have to pre-choose their miracles.

I think there can be holy rituals for certain powerful long term effects, but generally speaking I think a cleric should just have a small pool of divine spells based on their deity that they can choose to cast on the fly. Like the 3.x Sorcerer (or the 3.x Evangelist).