One Annoyed God + One Stuborn Player

[Centaur]

And you have a situation that has gone on longer than it should have.

A situation occured in my game several sessions ago in which two of the PCs IMC attacked a BBEG inside a church while the BBEG was "Under the Care of the Clergy". The BBEG feld the church to get away from the PCs but was later tracked down and killed.

The BBEG was killed in front of the Captain of the Guard who knew nothing of the PC's or the BBEG activities so he arrested them all and confiscated the BBEG body and possessions before the PC's could get at them.

The chruch, being upset about someone in their care being attacked while under their roof took action and retrieved the body from the Guard lockup and raised the person. In addition, they required the Two offending PCs to make minor restorations for their actions.

Restorations are in the form of either a donation of a minor permanent magic item, a some of cash, a small sacrifice of XP or a task benefiting the chruch. Otherwise, they would be considred enemies of the chruch. (I havn't decided what 'enemies of the church' means yet)

One of the two players in a GM himself and not only anticipated the resurection of the BBEG and the requirement of sacrifice, but had set about making his sacrifice before the judgement had been handed down. The God in question is the worlds God of Magic, so he started making a cloak of resistance +1 on his own, to donate to the church as an appogy. Obviuosly no problem there.

The other player is not a GM and is one of my most stuborn players. He not only doesn't think he did anything wrong, but now has a hate on for the chruch for taking these actions. He continues to bad mouth members of the clergy of the church etc. etc.

His character is a Sorcerer. Would I be out of line if I started giving save bonuses in ever increasing levels to the people he casts spells on, as a sort of punishment from the God of Magic? Does anyone have any other in game punishments I should induce on him?

I'm thinking of having the god reward the first player/PC for his quick action in attaining forgiveness with the church. This will also serve to piss off the other player even more. Any suggestions for a reward?

 

[dave_o]

Why not use some of the stuff from Bestow Curse? The BoVD has some naaaassttty curses.

And, what good GM wouldn't use naaasssttyyyy curses?

 

[root]

Depends on your world. Take FR for example, just because some wizard is evil doesn't mean he cannot cast any spells because the goddess of magic is neutral or good (can't remember off the top of my head).

Same goes for bad mouthing, why would the god care to intervene? His clergy might since they could potentially lose members, feel enough is enough, etc.

Maybe your world is different, but in this case you are really setting yourself up as a campaign of players vs GM. Think KotDT. While funny, it can be quite fustrating at the sametime. Group co-herency is lost, player constantly attempts to take advantage of all rules and twist them to his own ends and while you could do the samething, it simply escalates which other players might find annoying.

At any rate, let me know what you decide and what happens, especially if you go with your ideas. Sounds like some good reading and laughs.

 

[Tsyr]

His character is a Sorcerer. Would I be out of line if I started giving save bonuses in ever increasing levels to the people he casts spells on, as a sort of punishment from the God of Magic?

In brief, yes, unless you provide an alternate method of him lifting this curse. Otherwise it smacks too much of "I AM DM, F34R MY PLOT DEVICE!" for an already on-the-edge player to take lightly.

*edit*

I'm also going to echo and restate something alluded to by someone else.

Really, is this something the God would ACTUALY care about enough bestow his Personal Wrath for? I can't see it... Gods are busy people, they don't have time for every little quabble in the mortal world. Otherwise every time a person killed a cleric of an evil god, they would have to go on an Epic Quest if Evil or die, or something like that.

 

[Arnwyn]

I don't think it would be reasonable that the god would "punish" the sorcerer, unless you have made it clear in your world that gods are very involved with mortals, and that everyone can be affected by deities, even those not belonging to the church. Otherwise it seems a little dirty on the DM's side of things...

I would stay away from that, personally. In the end, the sorcerer is digging his own grave quite fine on his own by badmouthing an entire religion.

Rewarding the prudent player, though, is a very good idea. He seems like he is sincere in his apology. I'm sure the church would be pleased with that reaction.

 

[Particle_Man]

I have advice for your stubborn player:

Next time, kill the clergy first, THEN the BBEG (to prevent this raise dead stuff). Oh, and burn all the bodies to ash to make it harder for any of them to be resurrected. In fact, try to reduce the church to rubble (after looting it), to discourage any clergy you might have missed.

Then kill the Guards, including that greedy Captain that took *your* rightfully gained plunder, and get that loot back.

In most game worlds, the God of Magic *STILL* won't give a damn about what you do, or so much as lift a divine finger to either stop you or punish you. The clergy might, but that is why you have to kill them first, and prevent them from being raised.

Hope this helps.

 

[Larry Fitz]

What are the Gods like in your campaign? Do they take a personal interest in the lives of the people on such a detailed level? What religion does the sorcerer follow? Why were members of that church helping a BBEG to begin with? Is it acceptable to the God of Magic to give sanctuary to BBEGs? Why? What does that have to do with Magic? What are the god's other domains? The amswers to these questions would allow a better and more reasoned response to your query.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If this church has spellcasters powerful enough to Raise Dead, then they also have clerics powerful enough to cast Speak with Dead, Commune, and Planar Ally. Heck, even Zone of Truth could serve to help the church understand why the BBEG was killed, and what the circumstances were.

I must admit that my sympathy is with the player in this circumstance. The church in question basically has done nothing to learn the truth of the matter, instead merely assuming that the players are "in the wrong" because they attacked someone who had taken shelter in the church. Why? I can think of no other reason for a church to summarily take such a stance, other than pride. After all, the means of knowing the truth are in their hands.

As for the God of Magic, what's his alignment? If it's good, I would absolutely not have him penalize the sorcerer. After all, the sorcerer was acting in the service of Good (by killing the BBEG,) and using magic to do it in the face of an (apparently) corrupt church of magic. As a good God of Magic, if I took any notice at all, I'd probably reward him with a divinely inspired feat or something.

If the God of Magic is neutral, then his primary concern is magic. Since the sorcerer hasn't (apparently) done anything to harm magic in any way, why should I care that he killed someone? Because the mortal pride of some of my priests was bruised? Such concerns are beneath me.

If the God of Magic is evil, then absolutely. The BBEG was probably working for him in the first place.

 

[Mercule]

Re: Re: One Annoyed God + One Stuborn Player

Really, is this something the God would ACTUALY care about enough bestow his Personal Wrath for? I can't see it... Gods are busy people, they don't have time for every little quabble in the mortal world. Otherwise every time a person killed a cleric of an evil god, they would have to go on an Epic Quest if Evil or die, or something like that.

Yup.

It's fine for the clergy to be frothing mad at him. Unless this is an epic game, though, the god probably hasn't even noticed the PCs exist.

I agree with the idea of using Bestow Curse on the character:

From the SRD
You place a curse on the subject. Choose one of the following three effects.
• –6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).
• –4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.
• Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.
You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above.
The curse bestowed by this spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell.

I think either of the first two would be even better than a "-1 to spell DRs".

My choice: Reduce his Charisma by 6. That's a -3 to the DR of all spells _and_ reduces his maximum spell level by 6 (if his cha <16, he's pretty much a Commoner).

If the church has the PC captive, they can keep trying it until it works, too.

 

[billd91]

I think it's well and good for the character to be a jerk about it, after all, it's role playing. As long as the player isn't being a total about it, that is.

I don't think I'd do anything to impose a mechanical penalty on the character from some godly source. In the grand scheme of things, as far as the god is concerned, this is small potatoes. However, the clergy could certainly be rip-roaring pissed off if he persists. Clergies tend to be a little sensitive about being bad-mouthed for enforcing the sanctity of their sanctuary.
Refusing him any temple services until he makes sufficient amends would, I think, suffice. But the longer he stays away and the more he trashes them, the harder it will be to atone. Other allied churches might also withhold services for the character.

As far as whether the church is in the right or not, as questioned by Lord Pendragon, taking shelter in the church is taking shelter in the church. If someone has claimed sanctuary and the church respects it, that's it. If churches start allowing their claimants to be butched, then they lose the trust of anybody who would come to them. Yes, pride is involved, but so is propriety. And these characters don't appear to have tried to avoid public mayhem and disorder in their actions. It may have been an ultimately good goal to nail the BBEG, but carried out in a way that broke other good goals: sanctity of the church and public peace.