one hit kills, unsatisfying?

[Shadeydm]

I understand that part. What I am saying is if thier force of being gets that great then they should be one shotting real demons. If a creature has to be turned into one hit wonder to represent that the PCs have become badass, then the PC really are not so bad after all.

This is the bizzaro thing about minions. The 200 hp demon became a 1 hp demon while on the PC side the 1d10+mod at will has an extra die or two of damage added. The huge drop in hit points is supposed to model the uberness of the high level PC instead of what they can actually do I suppose. Not very elegant from my pov.

 

[Scribble]

I understand that part. What I am saying is if thier force of being gets that great then they should be one shotting real demons. If a creature has to be turned into one hit wonder to represent that the PCs have become badass, then the PC really are not so bad after all.

I probably at that point could use a real demon, and the pcs would be able to one shot them. But then it would be a pointless waste of my time because the demon couldn't hit the PC.

Even the Joe team had to deal with the blue shirt cobra soldiers. Minions they might be, but they still can attack people.

What I'm saying is the PCs have now reached a level that what was once a real threat now represents about as much danger to them as joe average guy once did.

If it's not your way of playing, thats cool. It works for me, and I feel lets my group and I achieve more effects.

 

[Harlekin]

I understand that part. What I am saying is if thier force of being gets that great then they should be one shotting real demons. If a creature has to be turned into one hit wonder to represent that the PCs have become badass, then the PC really are not so bad after all.

So you would prefer it if there was a AD&D-like rule that every character fighting an enemy of his lvl-8 can take -10 on the attack roll to add his lvl*10 to damage?

 

[Korgoth]

In my campaign low level adventurers don't randomly face minion Demons. A Demon would never be a minion for a low level adventurer.

It would only show up as a mionion when the adventurers have reached the point where their force of being in the world is that great.

I see this differently. I would just say that such a Minion is always a Minion... the Netherworld can have faceless mooks just like any place else.

Now, they're highly professional faceless mooks, just like a unit of SS panzergrenadiers would be. Indvidually those troopers are not a bunch of little Audie Murphys or anything... but they do hit what they shoot at and they are totally vicious against enemy mooks.

To carry on with your GI Joe / COBRA analogy, high level Minions are like elite commando or ninja types. They're still not "named characters", and they still go down with a single lethal shot, but they are unquestionably good at what they do (which is why they haven't been shot through the heart until now... now they're facing Snake Eyes or Achilles or Chuck Norris or whomever and are about to learn about the "next level" that it's possible to take martial prowess to).

On the old complaint of "it feels like a videogame/WOW": the 4E game I'm playing in kind of does. But I think it does mainly because the goons have arbitrarily high AC and HP (even half-naked bare-knuckle brawlers are showing up with like a 20 or 21 AC [barely attainable by our own party], dishing out damage with their fists that is the equivalent of a sword attack, and having a million HPs). It's the whole thing about "Well, the pirates in this area are only level 2 because this is a newbie area, but the pirates in this other area are all level 40 because that's an area for experienced characters."

So you do wonder, as you're trying to think of the fantasy world, why Thundersnout Orcs all die in one hit to low-level schlubs, but the entire tribe of Snowfur Orcs are epic level just because they live in a different neighborhood. Or, more to the point, why all the bar bouncers you faced at 1st level were 1st level bouncers, and now at 11th level all the bar bouncers are 11th level bouncers with the Dalton Paragon Path.

It's like being on a weirdass treadmill. Your character never even seems powerful because everything levels up in lock step with you.

 

[Scribble]

I see this differently. I would just say that such a Minion is always a Minion... the Netherworld can have faceless mooks just like any place else.

That would work too. Realy I've always been the type that feels that if a game rule has two possible explainations, one that makes sense, another that doesn't... The one that makes sense is the right explaination. I don't much care whether or not it's the original explaination the designer thought of, because well, the one that makes sense alows me to play the game and have fun doing so- as opposed to breaking down into wondering whyt eh game doesn't make sense...

For me it's not so much Orcs are now higher level because you're higher level. It's just that now things you do are higher level. Now that you're higher level, you can take on that crazy powerful orc tribe.

 

[Hawke]

We kind of discussed the idea of minion death having a minimum of 5 or something damage to kill it. I know it kind of gimps the fighter auto-minion killing cleave, but at higher levels I think it's reasonable. We agreed not to bother with it now, but once we get to Paragon I might do something a little more after we test it.

I think minions perform poorly with the "fun" factor when there are only a few (I've seen written encounters with 2 minions) but really are cool when you see ~8. Yeah, killing an individual might not be that gratifying, but if you've got 10 more funneling down the hall and flanking you to get to the caster, it's really more exciting and the cheapness goes away.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Some thoughts about the same from my first RCFG playtest: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4647683-post83.html

 

[Scribble]

We kind of discussed the idea of minion death having a minimum of 5 or something damage to kill it. I know it kind of gimps the fighter auto-minion killing cleave, but at higher levels I think it's reasonable. We agreed not to bother with it now, but once we get to Paragon I might do something a little more after we test it.

I think minions perform poorly with the "fun" factor when there are only a few (I've seen written encounters with 2 minions) but really are cool when you see ~8. Yeah, killing an individual might not be that gratifying, but if you've got 10 more funneling down the hall and flanking you to get to the caster, it's really more exciting and the cheapness goes away.

I did something similar in my game. The PCs had to rescue the lord of the town from being executed unjustly. To escape they needed to get from the town square and through the gate before it was closed.

The town guard summoned after them were minions, and it really felt like a frantic escape scene. Complete with the "Don't let him close the gate!" moment with a few well placed arrows.

 

[Skallgrim]

Honestly, my players really like the minions. I think they like the changeup between one encounter with 4-6 enemies (so they're pretty confident each monster is a tough guy) and another fight with 7-12 guys (so they know that several monsters are probably minions).

It gives different people, and different powers, a chance to shine. The wizard's Scorching Burst is OK versus the tough guys, but really brilliant versus those minions. The sneaky rogue is badass vs. the Big Brute, but she gets slowed down by the mass of minions.

It's a fun changeup, and keeps fights from feeling "samey". Also, you can occasionally throw in the minions with Resist (such as Duergar with Resist 10 fire) or a Leader who can boost them (like the Kobold Wyrmpriest that gives allies 5 temp hp). Against the kobolds, the Wyrmpriest was much hated, as he made the wimpy ones tougher (but not too tough, of course). The Duergar miners meant that a GOOD scorching burst could take out multiple ones, but a Magic Missile was more reliable against any one Miner, which made it a real choice for the wizard.

Again, variety is the spice of life for me on this one. I would hate to see minions in every fight, but I'd hate to lose the 1 hp dudes entirely too.

 

[Quartz]

Can I throw a couple of suggestions?

Make a new type of minion called a Tougher Minion.

Tougher Minions are automatically Bloodied on a successful first hit and only die on a successful second hit.

and / or

Tougher Minions never take secondary damage

and / or

Tougher Minions are automatically killed on a successful Critical hit.