One System to Rule Them All!

[Tokiwong]

d20 seems to have been built more towards combat then anything. Given the amount of combat spells, and classes more focused with Combat STUFF, it really doesn't have many in the way of helping with roleplaying in non-combat areas.

Now, Hero or Exalted...

Exalted is bad example the majpority of the charms are combat focused, and most of the cool abilities also have combat application, that is truly a game of kicking arse, and doing it well.

 

[Psion]

d20 seems to have been built more towards combat then anything. Given the amount of combat spells, and classes more focused with Combat STUFF, it really doesn't have many in the way of helping with roleplaying in non-combat areas.

Many would point out that attempts to "help roleplaying stuff" are, if well intentioned, ill-fated. I find that the 3e skill and interaction system is more than adequate. The only system I've seen do it better is MegaTraveller. You start getting too intrusive like many modern games that use personality mechanics, I think you are asking for trouble.

 

[Enceladus]

d20 seems to have been built more towards combat then anything. Given the amount of combat spells, and classes more focused with Combat STUFF, it really doesn't have many in the way of helping with roleplaying in non-combat areas.

Now, Hero or Exalted...

Bah. When I need a book to help me roleplay, thats when I quit gaming forever. Always thought it was a silly notion.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, the designers don't seem to have shown any understanding of the concept that certain systems don't work well for certain genres-- Call of Cthulhu being the most blatant and offensive example of a game that doesn't fit d20's "default assumptions."

So, yeah, I'd say it was designed as a system to replace all the others. It doesn't work as a replacement for several other games, so I don't think it will supplant other systems. On the other hand, D&D is the most popular roleplaying game, and several incredibly good d20 products are coming out.

Since the games I prefer to play work well with d20 mechanics, all is good.

I disagree with almost everything said in this post. CoC works as well within the d20 ruleset as it did in the BRP ruleset, which also wasn't custom designed for that genre either. It's hardly blatant and offensive; I find d20 CoC to be a great design excercise, and although I rarely play it, I borrow stuff from it all the time.

And certainly d20 wasn't designed to replace any other system except for D&D 3e. Ryan Dancey and others have made that clear over and over again. On the other hand, I think it will make it very difficult for other systems to be more than niche within the market, especially as more and more flexible iterations of the system come out, i.e. CoC, M&M, etc.

 

[Desdichado]

It's not a matter of CoC being hack'n'slash. It most certainly isn't.

But Call of Cthulhu characters becoming more powerful, being able to take several hits from the terrors they encounter... even the increasing saving throws, run counter to the flavor of Call of Cthulhu.

The main reason that characters in Call of Cthulhu are supposed to run away so much, and do their research, and find ways to avoid gunfights, is because they don't stand a chance in a stand-up fight. The d20 level-based mechanic, the extra hit dice-- all of these make Call of Cthulhu characters heroic. They can survive the horrors, and they can defend themselves. Cultists can't cut them to shreds with their knives any more, and the investigator can charge through that hail of gunfire, because they have that heroic, epic quality that all d20 games have.

I like that quality, which is why I like most d20 games. But it's the wrong flavor for Call of Cthulhu.

Actually, BRP CoC can be more munchkiny than the d20 version. You can max out your ranks in Dodge and be practically untouchable relatively easily. And, if you're levelling up a lot in d20 CoC you're probably not playing it right. The potential to do that is there, but certainly it's not a requirement to do so.

 

[MerricB]

Re: Re: One System to Rule Them All!

Well, it depends on how much emphasis you put on that "all". Ryan Dancey was quite upfront back in 2000 that one of the aims of d20 was to "rationalise" the RPG industry by weeding out the more fringe rulesets out there. Reason being that this hobby survives by building networks of gamers, and you can't network very well if noone else plays your game.

I'd have no idea whether that's actually what's happened. There certainly seems to be no shortage of alternatives two years down the track....

Well, given that there's a bunch of systems based on the d20 system, rather than just being 'something like D&D', I think it's beginning to work.

HOWEVER, it will really start working when GURPS, Storyteller or a similar system starts using the OGL.

Has any system that is not based on the d20 system yet done that?

Cheers!

 

[buzz]

Re: Re: Re: One System to Rule Them All!

HOWEVER, it will really start working when GURPS, Storyteller or a similar system starts using the OGL.

I can guarantee you that this will never happen. The d20/OGL license works for WotC because they're the one gaming company that profits from handing over the supplement and adventure business to third-parties. Supplements are GURPS and Storyteller's bread and butter. If SJG started letting companies produce "Powered by GURPS" products for free, they'd be out of business in a month.

Not that I would mind if other companies started open-sourcing their games, mind you, but I just don't think it would be profitable for anyone but WotC.

Has any system that is not based on the d20 system yet done that?

When the OGL was first created, I remember that there was a company with a system called Dominon that jumped on the bandwagon. I think they soon realized that the OGL serves no purpose if no one wants to make products using your system.

Anyway, the real innovator in open-sourcing (in a sense) is FUDGE. FUDGE has always been free, and Stefan O. Sullivan will let anyone sell products based on it. It's not techincally an "open" license, but in practice it's about the same.

http://www.fudgerpg.com

I hjad also thought Fuzion worked like this, but I'm not sure.

 

[s/LaSH]

I'm inclined to say 'not designed to rule them all'. It's possible to fudge it into almost any genre, but d20 doesn't handle everything well, and I suspect any game designer would cower before the prospect of converting B-Movie into d20.

There will always be a fringe of systems that work better than d20 for certain genres. An industry standard, that I could call it. Heck, I'm writing conversion rules for my homebrew system. But nobody could expect it to run in certain ways without tearing completely apart.

(For those not in the know, B-Movie is an RPG I found online that seems to do a very good job of emulating weak, pathetic characters being chased by monsters. And you're not the monsters. No link, I'm afraid.)

 

[Zappo]

Me too didn't know until a while ago that other systems besides d20 were "open". I guess that it's D&D that did the magic.

Anyway, d20 wasn't designed with the idea of killing all other systems. I think one of the WotC high-ups (RyanD? AV?) even explictly said so.

I doubt that there is a way of doing any setting well with the same systems without it becoming exceedingly complex and/or munchkinable (*cough*GURPS*cough*).

 

[Henry]

I'll take Ryan Dancey at his word when he said that d20 wasn't designed to bee the end-all and be-all gaming system (see his "Ryan Dancey tells you what to think about the game" column/forum over at gamingreport.net). However, it was obviously meant to reduce the number of minor rules systems out there. It also means that projects like Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed are now viable, and cannot be sued out of hand.

(The cynic in me says that Ryan knew that WotC would have to let go most of its designers and editors, and came up with a way for most of them to remain at least with one hand in the industry doing what they loved, as well as giving die-hard fans an outlet to produce as much niche-specific material as they wished.)

However, it also means that development work is vital to d20 and D&D's success. d20 will live or die by the quality of those who push its design envelope. Monte Cook is one such designer. Like his work or hate it, you cannot deny that he is a very innovative game designer, and is always on the boundary of what is balanced and what is not for this system. (Take his work in his malhavoc press products as one example, and his work in Call of Cthulhu d20 for very inspired take on how to keep a game lethal, that is reknowned for its lethality as part of its flavor.)

But I can't honestly say that any designer in their right mind (you can quote me on this) would say that d20 can do any genre, any level of realism, and any level of grimness or grittiness desired. There is a reason for the continued existance of classless systems, and skill-based systems, and it's not just the stubbornness of die-hard gamers. In fact, take a look at Green Ronin's Mutants and Masterminds as one example of breaking the mold and taking the d20 mechanics into new territory that isn't traditional level/class.