One thing playtest feedback is showing about "simulation" is.....

[Herschel]

...that many simulationists have no idea what they're simulating, especially in regards to fighters. I see many comments along the lines of "Fighters are battling for their lives, not engaging in fancy moves." or "They're kited up for battle and swinging their swords for their lives!"

I realize gamers are (stereo)typically an unathletic bunch but my lord, training, tricks and technique are a real "fighter's"/athlete's bread & butter. If a "real" fighter were to just stand in place and hack with his sword you know what you'd get? A DEAD FIGHTER. It's no different than football or boxing, except the stakes are higher.

A boxer who just tries to trade punches with his opponent will be on the mat in moments, a football player who just tries to run in to his opponent as hard as he can will never see game time because he's an abject failure. Martial artists don't do all their moves for show, they're offensive actions and counters.

The playtest fighter only really simulates one thing well: a dead fighter. It's kind of ironic that that one of the things so-called "simulationists" hated most was Come & Get It. A smart fighter feints an opening so that enemies around him think they see an easy shot to kill him and when they fall for his trick he gives them a boot-to-the-head. That's how a real/trained fighter operates. He taunts his foes and calls them out. He's not a wimpy wallflower, he's trained to stand in the thick of things and when the stuff hits the fan he's still standing, not as a statue with a sword but a whirling avatar of pain.

Why did you think an overtly trolling thread is valuable here? Plane Sailing, Enworld Admin

 

[Dausuul]

...that many simulationists have no idea what they're simulating, especially in regards to fighters. I see many comments along the lines of "Fighters are battling for their lives, not engaging in fancy moves." or "They're kited up for battle and swinging their swords for their lives!"

I don't think I've seen a single comment to this effect yet. Maybe I'm reading the wrong threads.

It's kind of ironic that that one of the things so-called "simulationists" hated most was Come & Get It. A smart fighter feints an opening so that enemies around him think they see an easy shot to kill him and when they fall for his trick he gives them a boot-to-the-head. That's how a real/trained fighter operates. He taunts his foes and calls them out. He's not a wimpy wallflower, he's trained to stand in the thick of things and when the stuff hits the fan he's still standing, not as a statue with a sword but a whirling avatar of pain.

Oh, come on. That's not the complaint about Come and Get It--the objection to CaGI was that it worked without fail on all enemies, including spellcasters who had no reason whatever to move within the fighter's reach.

If you've got a sword and I've got a revolver, and you're obviously an expert swordsman, while I'm real good with a gun but not much of a hand-to-hand fighter, explain to me how exactly you "feint" or "taunt" to make me engage you in melee. You can call me names and fake stumbles all you like. I'm just going to stand back and shoot you.

 

[Keldryn]

I realize gamers are (stereo)typically an unathletic bunch but my lord, training, tricks and technique are a real "fighter's"/athlete's bread & butter. If a "real" fighter were to just stand in place and hack with his sword you know what you'd get? A DEAD FIGHTER. It's no different than football or boxing, except the stakes are higher.

A boxer who just tries to trade punches with his opponent will be on the mat in moments, a football player who just tries to run in to his opponent as hard as he can will never see game time because he's an abject failure. Martial artists don't do all their moves for show, they're offensive actions and counters.

The D&D fighter does not, and never has, simply "stood in place hacking with his sword." He's dodging, parrying, and feinting while waiting for an opening. The fighter and his opponent are probably circling each other too -- the game just doesn't concern itself with that level of detailed simulation.

The fighter's high hit point total represents his skill in avoiding being injured by his opponent. The appearance on the "game board" of "standing still, trading blows" is simply an abstraction to keep the gameplay at a brisk pace. Characters don't move in discrete 5' increments in the game world, nor do they actually take up 25 square feet of space.

 

[slobster]

If you've got a sword and I've got a revolver, and you're obviously an expert swordsman, while I'm real good with a gun but not much of a hand-to-hand fighter, explain to me how exactly you "feint" or "taunt" to make me engage you in melee. You can call me names and fake stumbles all you like. I'm just going to stand back and shoot you.

Well you clearly don't remember your Mooks'R'Us combat training. When the hero charges up at you, the correct response is to try and bludgeon him with your rifle stock. Standing there like an idiot is also acceptable.

Of course if you ever did get a shot off, you're trained to miss anyway. So I suppose it's a wash.

 

[Dausuul]

Well you clearly don't remember your Mooks'R'Us combat training. When the hero charges up at you, the correct response is to try and bludgeon him with your rifle stock. Standing there like an idiot is also acceptable.

Of course if you ever did get a shot off, you're trained to miss anyway. So I suppose it's a wash.

A legitimate argument, but hardly a simulationist one.

 

[Umbran]

A legitimate argument, but hardly a simulationist one.

Depends - if you're simulating Star Wars Stormtroopers, it is dead on.

 

[El Mahdi]

...that many simulationists have no idea what they're simulating, especially in regards to fighters. I see many comments along the lines of "Fighters are battling for their lives, not engaging in fancy moves." or "They're kited up for battle and swinging their swords for their lives!"

I agree that most people do not understand what real medieval melee involves or looks like. In their head, most see what they've picked up from movies, which is usually horribly wrong.

But, I'm not seeing the feedback you're referring to either...

I realize gamers are (stereo)typically an unathletic bunch but my lord, training, tricks and technique are a real "fighter's"/athlete's bread & butter. If a "real" fighter were to just stand in place and hack with his sword you know what you'd get? A DEAD FIGHTER. It's no different than football or boxing, except the stakes are higher.

A boxer who just tries to trade punches with his opponent will be on the mat in moments, a football player who just tries to run in to his opponent as hard as he can will never see game time because he's an abject failure. Martial artists don't do all their moves for show, they're offensive actions and counters.

The playtest fighter only really simulates one thing well: a dead fighter. It's kind of ironic that that one of the things so-called "simulationists" hated most was Come & Get It. A smart fighter feints an opening so that enemies around him think they see an easy shot to kill him and when they fall for his trick he gives them a boot-to-the-head. That's how a real/trained fighter operates. He taunts his foes and calls them out. He's not a wimpy wallflower, he's trained to stand in the thick of things and when the stuff hits the fan he's still standing, not as a statue with a sword but a whirling avatar of pain.

All of this stuff is going on in a D&D fight, it's just the rules themselves do not show this much detail or granularity.

It can though...for example check out Codex Martialis CORE RULES V 23 - Ire Games | RPGNow.com ...but most people don't want that kind of granularity in their game as it takes longer to resolve. Some people don't want it at all (though they usually are not simulationists). In order to still have fast resolution, while having good simulation, I've found a good mix of believable/realistic Narration fills in nicely.

But I agree, most people (and a good number of them self describe as "Simulationist") don't really understand how real combat works. But D&D for the most part, cannot do that level of simulation and still be a simple, fast resolution system.

 

[Ravenheart87]

D&D is not about simulation and never was. The combat is abstract and epic - the latter is the reason why the rounds were one minute long in OD&D and AD&D. If I want more realistic (but still playable) combat, I play HackMaster. D&D for me is about kick ass sword & sorcery action and derring-do.

 

[Klaus]

The pregen Fighter *does* have a power, which is pretty much Reaping Strike (with the added benefit of working on everything, since there are no "minions"), and he later on gains the equivalent to 2 action points and later on, Cleave.

 

[Neuroglyph]

The D&D fighter does not, and never has, simply "stood in place hacking with his sword." He's dodging, parrying, and feinting while waiting for an opening. The fighter and his opponent are probably circling each other too -- the game just doesn't concern itself with that level of detailed simulation.

The fighter's high hit point total represents his skill in avoiding being injured by his opponent. The appearance on the "game board" of "standing still, trading blows" is simply an abstraction to keep the gameplay at a brisk pace. Characters don't move in discrete 5' increments in the game world, nor do they actually take up 25 square feet of space.

I find it ironic that 4E finally gave D&D the higher level of simulation for melee, with actual movement on the battlefield, like circling and forcing enemies' moves, and it was accused by many grognards as being gamist and unrealistic. And it also showed that increased simulation could be even more epic and still run as fast as 3.5 combats. Hilarious.

The pregen Fighter *does* have a power, which is pretty much Reaping Strike (with the added benefit of working on everything, since there are no "minions"), and he later on gains the equivalent to 2 action points and later on, Cleave.

Reaping Strike is not a "power". It's a side effect, and slightly more powerful than a Feat. The pregen Fighter looks about as much fun as playing chess with a potted plant.