Only Lawful Monks?

[Technik4]

Looking over the new 3.5 phb brought up some old sentiments as I started making new characters. The barbarian or bard cannot be lawful, a druid must have a semblence of neutrality, and paladins must be lawful good.

A monk must be lawful, which is the most limiting of those restrictions (besides paladin who can only be 1 alignment). I'm just curious why the "any non-chaotic" line wasn't used. Personally I think if fits better than ever in 3.5 where neutral monks lose part of an ability by maintaining such neutrality (they would not gain the ability to penetrate DR x/lawful).

So would you let someone play a neutral monk?

Technik

 

[Mike Sullivan]

I'd regard alignment restrictions in general more as alignment guidelines. I'd be willing to see even chaotic monks, as long as the player could verbalize some reason for it beyond, "d00d, kAos roolz!"

(I think that the genre convention wacky old Taoists from wuxia might easily qualify as "chaotic monks," for example.)

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I completely ignore the rule on Monk alignment restrictions.

 

[Technik4]

I completely ignore the rule on Monk alignment restrictions.

Do you plan on giving Neutral monks anything extra when other monks receive their Alignment DR? What about a Neutral Evil monk? Would you give her Evil DR penetration? This is assuming you are converting to 3.5. If you aren't then if someone else is, please chime in!

Technik

 

[Technik4]

Mike:

I don't have a problem with chaos monks, but I dont think the monk class represents it very well. Many of the abilities seem orderly, or perhaps it just seems that way since its been that way for 3 years...

Chaotic monks seem like they would be very wild, like a drunken master perhaps.

Technik

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Mike:

I don't have a problem with chaos monks, but I dont think the monk class represents it very well. Many of the abilities seem orderly, or perhaps it just seems that way since its been that way for 3 years...

Orderly? Really? Which abilities?

AC Bonus -- No.
Flurry of Blows -- No.
Unarmed Strike -- No.
Improved Grapple -- No.
Stunning Fist -- No.
Combat Reflexes -- No.
Deflect Arrows -- No.
Improved Disarm -- No.
Improved Trip -- No.
Evasion -- No.
Fast Movement -- No.
Ki Strike -- The Lawful thing, of course, does. The others, no.
Slow Fall -- Doesn't seem Lawful to me.
Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Timeless Body -- I see an element of stasis in these, of course. But, again, the ancient Taoist is very in-genre, so, within the Monk's antecedents, I'd have to say "No."
Abundant Step -- Nope.
Diamond Soul -- I don't think that SR is very Lawful.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon -- Not really.
Empty Body -- No.
Perfect Self -- Nope.

So, I've got one thing in there which seems unambiguously Lawful to me. Change it to making Lawful guys count as Lawful, Chaotic guys count as Chaotic, and Neutral guys get to choose between Lawful and Chaotic (a la Neutral priests and undead-turning), and I think you're basically done.

 

[Technik4]

I definitely would NOT let neutral monks choose between Chaotic and Lawful DR.

Your list is accurate, but it doesnt include the flavor that speaks of contemplation, perfection, strict discipline, etc. Also monastaries are mentioned many times, and it seems more aligned with Order than Chaos. It also takes strict devotion (the multiclass penalties) to stay on the path of the monk, which reeks of law.

As you pointed out, many of the abilities don't have a lawful bent, but they were given with a lawful monk in mind, so perhaps thats why it seems so to me. Lawful abilities might include Disorienting Fist (confusing an opponent instead of stunning them). Minor stuff like that I suppose.

Technik

 

[MarauderX]

I think the idea is discipline. Discipline is needed to use Wis for AC and for the other extras, and I think Discipline and Lawful run pretty much together, whether you are LG, LN or LE. I suppose you could house rule it and say, "Nah, disicipline isn't realy needed to train yourself how to anticipate a blow to dodge better" but I see it as rather counter-intuitive to reality - the very thing we are striving to recreate in certain ways.

After all, I don't like the narrow definitions that are used in the PHB and believe there is a lot more to a LN character than "must follow the law to the letter". That kind of strict interpretation is blind and just doesn't belong in a campaign, let alone your weekly game where you want to have fun and not squabble about being 'out of character alignment' IMO. For instance, a Ronin-type monk might be LG if he roams the country side as a misunderstood (perhaps low Cha) warrior that saves the town but leaves without a word or reward. Or that same Ronin-type monk is LE and roams the countryside looking to be paid for his every action as well as bilking the most from those around him.

To me it's not a question of class restriction as it is an alignment restriction.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I would let Neutral Monks get both Lawful and Chaotic Damage. It may be a bit unbalancing, but a neutral monk in my opinion should have an edge over a lawful or chaotic one, based on the fact that they have learned how to balance two opposing forces within them. As for neutral good or neutral evil monks, they can respectively as count good or evil.

 

[paulewaug]

I think the idea is discipline. Discipline is needed to use Wis for AC and for the other extras, and I think Discipline and Lawful run pretty much together, whether you are LG, LN or LE. I suppose you could house rule it and say, "Nah, disicipline isn't realy needed to train yourself how to anticipate a blow to dodge better" but I see it as rather counter-intuitive to reality - the very thing we are striving to recreate in certain ways.
...etc.

I am inclined to agree with this statment, the Lawful aspect does seem to be trying to use D&D's alignment system,
(IMHO limited and often-arguably poorly defined)
to represent the discipline required to gollow the path of the Monk.
IMHO Samurai Jack makes a wonderful Iconic Monk, accepting the fact that he has mastery in fighting with his Katana and prefers to use that more than fighting unarmed.
But his discipline reflects this idea.

I also think they did this to keep me from playing a Barbarian-Monk multi classed half-orc!