Only Lawful Monks?

[Mike Sullivan]

This is a multiple reply.

I definitely would NOT let neutral monks choose between Chaotic and Lawful DR.

Why not? It's the way neutral clerics work, broadly speaking. I think that it lacks a certain something in terms of aesthetic loveliness, but if one is willing to allow Chaotic monks to have Chaotic-penetration, and Lawful monks to have Lawful penetration, then it stands to reason that you consider neither to be unbalancing. Why not allow neutrals to choose?

(For the record, I mean "choose once, and that's it," not "choose with every strike.")

Your list is accurate, but it doesnt include the flavor that speaks of contemplation, perfection, strict discipline, etc. Also monastaries are mentioned many times, and it seems more aligned with Order than Chaos. It also takes strict devotion (the multiclass penalties) to stay on the path of the monk, which reeks of law.

I agree that the flavour would have to be changed. I just don't think any ability besides the Lawful-penetration does.

Originally posted by MarauderX
I think the idea is discipline. Discipline is needed to use Wis for AC and for the other extras, and I think Discipline and Lawful run pretty much together, whether you are LG, LN or LE. I suppose you could house rule it and say, "Nah, disicipline isn't realy needed to train yourself how to anticipate a blow to dodge better" but I see it as rather counter-intuitive to reality - the very thing we are striving to recreate in certain ways.

Disagreement on three issues:

1. "Discipline is needed to use Wis for AC"

Huh? I don't think that there's any rationale for Wis/AC besides a preternatural awareness of what's going on around you.

2. "Discipline and Lawful run pretty much together"

Not in martial-arts fantasy. There are plenty of trickster, unpredictable, practical jokers who are none the less great masters and/or people who have achieved enlightenment, in the genre which inspires Monks.

3. "Reality - the very thing we are striving to recreate in certain ways"

You may be. In as much as I'm trying to recreate anything with Monks, it's wuxia genre conventions, not reality.

I also scoff at the idea that Monks as-is come within a long-distance chi-enhanced spitting range of reality, either in terms of their abilities or any particular philosophy.


EDIT: Note that I agree that the discipline/lawful thing is what WotC had in mind when they came up with the lawful restriction for Monks.

 

[clark411]

Most monk abilities aren't tied to their alignment.. that's made clear in the paragraph regarding Ex-monks that clearly states that non-lawful monks retain their earned abilities but are unable to advance further.

The lawful aspect is the adherence to tradition and the following of specific methods of training, pure and simple. You follow this mindset, you head towards physical perfection, you don't.. well, you got pretty far- get out of monkland. Just about the only guy we can safely say split from tradition and didn't fall off the equivalent path of a monk is Bruce Lee, at least in the idea of advancing in skill and technique through the embracing of chaos to overcome and surpass the rigidity of lawful traditions.

If a DM is running a wuxia game that defies the natural conventions of DND, with everyone above 6th level being able to fly for short amounts of time with the proper feat, and everyone above level 4 knowing every other warrior "OH my, that's Lao Mu Bai, the great warrior I've never met but I know of as I too am a warrior!"... ack tangent... if the DM is defying conventions already to run a variant monk game, then there's no reason to stick to the Lawful only thing. However, saying that the alignment restrictions are guidelines is fibbing.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

However, saying that the alignment restrictions are guidelines is fibbing.

"Fibbing"? What, are we in the antebellum South, now?

And I said, "I'd regard alignment restrictions in general more as alignment guidelines." Note the difference between that and, "Alignment restrictions in general are only guidelines."

 

[MarauderX]

A soft rebuttal...

Disagreement on three issues:

1. "Discipline is a way to use Wis for AC"

Huh? I don't think that there's any rationale for Wis/AC besides a preternatural awareness of what's going on around you.

2. "Discipline and Lawful run pretty much together"

Not in martial-arts fantasy. There are plenty of trickster, unpredictable, practical jokers who are none the less great masters and/or people who have achieved enlightenment, in the genre which inspires Monks.

3. "Reality - the very thing we are striving to recreate in certain ways"

You may be. In as much as I'm trying to recreate anything with Monks, it's wuxia genre conventions, not reality.

I also scoff at the idea that Monks as-is come within a long-distance chi-enhanced spitting range of reality, either in terms of their abilities or any particular philosophy.


EDIT: Note that I agree that the discipline/lawful thing is what WotC had in mind when they came up with the lawful restriction for Monks.

1. Of course it's an interpretation of why Wis is applied to AC as much as it is for reasoning why a Duelist can add Int to AC as long as she is at least holding a butter knife.

2. I can't think of how many time I have opened up OA and thought how structured Rokugan is, how most everyone follows an honor system, from the good guys down to the bad. The idea is those undergoing training are following a path, an ideal, or in your words 'enlightenment'; this path is something that has structure, or a way of behaving and is not whimsical or tolerant of less than total devotion. That to me is a version of Lawful, whether it is Good, Neutral or Evil.

I can't think of any enlightened jokers/tricksters that are still 'practicing' monks to serve as an example. There are LE monks of course, and maybe it is this homage to evil that keeps a monk part of the lawful realm, much like Darth Vader still worked for the Emperor. Perhaps these tricksters once were part of a cloister and were tossed out when they changed alignment, and they keep all of the monk levels they got before getting the boot.

3. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I agree that in no way does the monk come close to real-life monks OR martial artists. There is no way that any of the classes depict real life exactly, nor do I think they were meant to. It is all up to you how much you want to depict things in your game, but I like to have dungeons/battles/motivations/etc. make sense in the perspective of the game. In relation to reality? That comparison can't, and shouldn't be made IMO.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

1. Of course it's an interpretation of why Wis is applied to AC as much as it is for reasoning why a Duelist can add Int to AC as long as she is at least holding a butter knife.

"Of course" what? I really don't at all follow your reasoning. It doesn't seem even remotely self-evident to me that "discipline" explains the Wisdom bonus to AC for Monks.

Naturally, the fluff about Monks in the PHB is all discipline-oriented. But I have literally, un-sarcastically, entirely no idea why you think that it's particularly evident in the Wis bonus to AC as opposed to, say, the Monk's Improved Trip, fast movement, or Abundant Step.

2. I can't think of how many time I have opened up OA and thought how structured Rokugan is, how most everyone follows an honor system, from the good guys down to the bad. The idea is those undergoing training are following a path, an ideal, or in your words 'enlightenment'; this path is something that has structure, or a way of behaving and is not whimsical or tolerant of less than total devotion. That to me is a version of Lawful, whether it is Good, Neutral or Evil.

Rokugan is pretty structured, yes. It's a fantasy version of Japan in which the characters are broadly assumed to be figures of the establishment (ie, of the samurai caste), and who are defending society from the barbarian hordes (the Shadowlands critters). Monks aren't only for Rokugan, and Rokugan is far from the only model even for asian-themed fantasy adventures.

I can't think of any enlightened jokers/tricksters that are still 'practicing' monks to serve as an example.

The old buddhist guy from Ninja Scroll. Jet Li's character from Twin Dragons after he discovers the Way/goes crazy. Just as two quick random examples.

3. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I agree that in no way does the monk come close to real-life monks OR martial artists. There is no way that any of the classes depict real life exactly, nor do I think they were meant to. It is all up to you how much you want to depict things in your game, but I like to have dungeons/battles/motivations/etc. make sense in the perspective of the game. In relation to reality? That comparison can't, and shouldn't be made IMO.

I don't see anything about Chaotic monks which creates an inconsistancy in the game. I'd see an inconsistancy in the game if you had an allegedly Chaotic monk who was peacefully puttering about a monestary, working on his flower arrangement or whatever, and taking orders from the head of the monestary. I have no problem with the "hermit who has achieved enlightenment through disavowing society" being Chaotic as all get-out.

 

[MarauderX]

Sorry I caught you in a bad mood, Mike.

"Of course" what? I really don't at all follow your reasoning. It doesn't seem even remotely self-evident to me that "discipline" explains the Wisdom bonus to AC for Monks.

I guess you didn't read what I wrote very well. Let me try again.

Of course it's an interpretation...

The key word is: interpretation

Naturally, the fluff about Monks in the PHB is all discipline-oriented. But I have literally, un-sarcastically, entirely no idea why you think that it's particularly evident in the Wis bonus to AC as opposed to, say, the Monk's Improved Trip, fast movement, or Abundant Step.

Again, as an interpretation, tuning oneself properly to sense danger stems from following the same rigidity of discipline. It could be this focus that allows the monk to be in harmony with others as well as herself and allow the monk to act accordingly. It's not like a fighter who might not care in the least how the world around him acts, and only relies on what his 5 senses tell him, nothing more.

Rokugan is pretty structured, yes. It's a fantasy version of Japan in which the characters are broadly assumed to be figures of the establishment (ie, of the samurai caste), and who are defending society from the barbarian hordes (the Shadowlands critters). Monks aren't only for Rokugan, and Rokugan is far from the only model even for asian-themed fantasy adventures.

Thanks for the synopsis I didn't need.

The old buddhist guy from Ninja Scroll. Jet Li's character from Twin Dragons after he discovers the Way/goes crazy. Just as two quick random examples..

Thanks for the examples. I'm not so sure about the old buddhist guy, as he seemed more of a druid than a monk-like bruiser. And if he were, I would judge him to be defined as a sly Lawful Neutral as he wishes to maintain the established government.
And Twin Dragons stars Jackie Chan to my recollection, unless the film was done by Jet Li under another name, or are you thinking of a different movie. Either way, it's a lost reference.

I don't see anything about Chaotic monks which creates an inconsistancy in the game. I'd see an inconsistancy in the game if you had an allegedly Chaotic monk who was peacefully puttering about a monestary, working on his flower arrangement or whatever, and taking orders from the head of the monestary. I have no problem with the "hermit who has achieved enlightenment through disavowing society" being Chaotic as all get-out.

Now THAT is the better example. I would agree with a character background as such, but would have a hard time making him a through-and-through monk per se, but probably wouldn't let the PC climb in levels of monk. Instead I might create a separate similiar PrC to fit the PC's ways as they no longer look towards maintaining/promoting an established organization.
Would I allow a player to run a non-lawful PC? Sure, if they really whine enough about how they can't act how they want under the broad umbrellas of LG, LN or LE. But I would respond that I don't critique alignment closely enough to care, that they can be LE and be a wicked, cruel bad@$$ too.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

I guess you didn't read what I wrote very well. Let me try again.

Of course it's an interpretation...

The key word is: interpretation

I caught that, actually. I just really, really, truly and honestly, don't undestand at all where you're coming from on it. It's like you're saying, "Of course it's an interpretation that cats are fish." I understand that you're just saying that it's your opinion, and that you aren't trying to force it on me, but I don't understand at all why you think that cats are fish. It's not just that I disagree with you.

Again, as an interpretation, tuning oneself properly to sense danger stems from following the same rigidity of discipline.

Woah, hang on. Let's try this again:

1. Granted that the PHB assumes that Monks are, in general, disciplined, lawful types, and thus, by inference, that all of their special abilities stem from that discipline.

2. Why does a Wis-based AC bonus seem to you like a particularly apt "discipline-based ability" as opposed to, say, fast movement or Abundant Step?

'Cause you aren't really making an argument above. Why can't a Chaotic guy "tune himself to sense danger"? Is being sensitive a particularly Lawful trait?

Would you regard a 10 Wis Monk to be less disciplined than an 18 Wis Monk?

It could be this focus that allows the monk to be in harmony with others as well as herself and allow the monk to act accordingly.

Sure, it could be. Or it could be that, I dunno, a Chaotic guy learns to expect the unexpected.

What I'm not seeing here is any particular thing about the Wis-based AC bonus that your argument plays to. I mean, could I not say,

"As an interpretation, tuning oneself properly to run really fast requires discipline, and it could be this focus that allows the monk to run fast"?

But, obviously, fast movement isn't a Lawful ability -- just ask the Barbarian.

It's not like a fighter who might not care in the least how the world around him acts, and only relies on what his 5 senses tell him, nothing more.

Surely it's not a Lawful trait to "care how the world around you acts"?

Thanks for the examples. I'm not so sure about the old buddhist guy, as he seemed more of a druid than a monk-like bruiser. And if he were, I would judge him to be defined as a sly Lawful Neutral as he wishes to maintain the established government.

He is a government agent, true. On the other hand, he gleefully lies and manipulates the protagonist's life, and is just a cackling little trickster.

His powers are obviously unlike those of a D&D Monk, but he is explicitely identified as a buddhist monk in the movie, and he's obviously supposed to be a martial arts master -- it's just that in the Ninja Scroll milieu, martial arts are a broader thing than in the D&D one.

And Twin Dragons stars Jackie Chan to my recollection, unless the film was done by Jet Li under another name, or are you thinking of a different movie. Either way, it's a lost reference.

My bad. Twin Warriors, not Twin Dragons. Here's the IMDB link: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0108281

Now THAT is the better example. I would agree with a character background as such, but would have a hard time making him a through-and-through monk per se, but probably wouldn't let the PC climb in levels of monk. Instead I might create a separate similiar PrC to fit the PC's ways as they no longer look towards maintaining/promoting an established organization.

Why create a PrC, and what would the differences from a normal Monk be, besides alignment? Granted that the philosophical outlooks would be quite different between a normal monk and a "crazy old hermit" monk, what would the difference be in their actual class abilities? What of the normal monk's abilities is specifically geared towards "maintaining/promoting an established organization"?

Would I allow a player to run a non-lawful PC? Sure, if they really whine enough about how they can't act how they want under the broad umbrellas of LG, LN or LE. But I would respond that I don't critique alignment closely enough to care, that they can be LE and be a wicked, cruel bad@$$ too.

See, I wouldn't allow someone to play a Chaotic Monk because they whined about how they "can't act how they want" under a Lawful alignment. Tough cookies, hypothetical player-of-mine!

I would allow a Chaotic Monk if someone came to me and said, "I want to play such-and-such a character, the Chaotic Monk. See, he should logically be Chaotic because of this-and-that, and he should logically be a martial-arts badass as an outgrowth of the same this-and-that."


EDIT: UBB code.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Twin Warriors? I know that movie by the name Tai Chi Master...

As for the ability to observe things around you and react to them, it has absolutely nothing to do with alignment. It has everything to do with your ability to observe and react to things and therefore wisdom. Chaotics though may explain it more as "Instinct" instead of "Discipline" but it all basically comes down to being the same thing as it has the same results.

 

[Afrodyte]

Re: Jet Li characters as non-lawful (or even chaotic) monks

Let's also not forget Fang Sai-Yuk.

I agree that the lawful requirement is rather odd, especially given that wizards don't have it because for them magic is a discipline. In any case, taking a cue from wizards, perhaps monks should be required to spend a certain amount of time each day meditating and working out to gain access to their special abilities (especially the really flashy combat stuff), just like wizards need to spend time studying and resting to be able to cast spells.

 

[Zimri]

After all, I don't like the narrow definitions that are used in the PHB and believe there is a lot more to a LN character than "must follow the law to the letter".

Pretty sure when I was reading about the LN alignment in the phb it said "acts as Law, Tradition, OR Personal code direct her."

Come up with a personal code and "sell" it to the DM. Of course you may not want my advice seeing as how the party I adventure with keeps yanging about my being evil just because I thought the idea of burning down a village that was infected with a plague was a better idea than using time and resources to find the source and fix it.

I keep arguing that although had we done that we would have slaughtered a village of innocents we could have potentially saved all of Faerun from sars.