[ooc] gng - nameless [4/4]

[doghead]

Some Thoughts Part II

Initiative Maerdwyn makes some good points, especially with the bab. Fighter types would always get the jump on non-fighter types. I'll probably leave it for now, or just slip it in when it seems appropriate.

Shields No one seems to object, so: +1 Defense for Bucklers, +2 for Light Shields and +3 for Heavy Shields.

Armour No one seems to object, so: Medium armour does not reduce you base speed, but still does reduce your run rate to x3. Other mods are unchanged.

Skills I'm not really planning on introducing this one, but have been thinking over it for a while. I saw an Epic game and thought that the skill bonuses were mental. (Actually, everything was mental.) I wondered about the idea of using the appropriate attribute as the skill rank cap. But it seems a little sudden. Get to the cap, and learn no more. So then I wondered about using an incremental skill rank buy. 1 point for rank 1, 2 points for rank 2. 3 points for rank 3. So it would cost 6 points to get rank 3, or 16 points to get rank 5.

I like characters to be able to diversify into the more unusual skills, so obviously a higher auto allotment of points each level would be needed. Your Int score comes to mind as one option. [Int 10*4 = 40.] At 10 points for 4 ranks, you could have 4 maxed skills at first level without much difficulty.

You should still be able to get a good range, but getting good (Bluff 5 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks for the +2 synergy bonus needs 32 skill points) is going to require dedication.

BAB OK. Gotta ask. Would it work with bab? Getting +1 BAB requires 1 CP. Improving to +2 BAB requires 2 CP. So achieving a +3 BAB would require 6 CP in total. With an 8CP build, you could get to a max of +8 BAB, requiring 36 CP in total. I don't see why there would be a need for a BAB increase/level cap with this system. Got 12 CP? Get +4 BAB! at first level (and precious little else). There would be no automatic BAB increase per level.

 

[Seonaid]

::rubs head tiredly:: It's been too long of a week, and I'd like to revisit this, but I had one comment.

For skills, would all skill points come from Int? I always say this because it's always true and reflects anything I might say, but would it work to have skill points be based on the appropriate attribute? So, you get x amount for Int-based skills, with x being calculated from your Int, y amount for Str-based skills, with y being calculated from your Str, etc. I don't know if that's balanced at all or makes any sense, but that's my sleep-deprived thought for now. I'll look more closely at this tomorrow.

 

[khavren]

khavren: no problem here. There are a few weights and stuff to be added but the basics are all there. Nice work.

You have 4 more skill points to spend. You might also want to look into synergies. I've added your Bluff synergy bonus to Diplomacy, there may be others.

You may want to consider some form of armour (magical or otherwise). With your Defense and Soak scores, if you get hit, its going to hurt. In gng, wounds bring with them penalties to rolls (Lightly Wounded - no effect, Moderately Wounded -2, Seriously Wounded -2, In A World of Hurt (Disabled) -4.)

BRB refers to your Base Reflex Bonus. You can use either this or your BAB for you Defense Bonus, whichever is higher.

OK. I think thats it.

[sblock]Fenix
Human Male Level 2
Concept: Wandering alchemist/snake oil salesman - A traveling salesman type who makes potions and brews, some that actually work, some that rely on sugar, alchol and a fast line of patter.

Initiative: +2 .......[+2 dex, +0 feat]
Speed: 30 ft. ........[base 30 ft., light load, no armour]
Defense: +3 ..........[+1 bab, +2 dex, +0 size]
Soak: +1 .............[+1 Con, +0 size]

BAB: +1.75
* melee +2 Hvy Mace (1d8+1, 10/+0)
* melee +2 Dagger (1d4+1, 8/+0)
* range +3 Sling (1d4+0, 10/+0, 50 ft.)
* range +3 Lgt x-bow (1d8+0, 8/+0, 80ft.)

Full Attack: xxx
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: xxx
Special Qualities: xxx

Saves:
- Fortitude +3 ......[base 2, +1 con],
- Reflex +3 .........[base 1, +2 dex],
- Will +1 ...........[base 3, -2 wis].

Abilities: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 7, Cha 16

Skills: [51 of 55 skill points]
- Appraise +4 ............[2 ranks, +2 int]
- Bluff +7 ...............[5 ranks, +2 int]
- Concentration +2 .......[1 ranks, +1 con]
- Craft (alchemy) +7 .....[5 ranks, +2 int]
- Diplomacy +10 ..........[5 ranks, +3 chr, +2 syn]
- Disguise +4 ............[1 ranks, +3 chr]
- Escape Artist +3 .......[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Gather Information +4 ..[1 ranks, +3 chr]
- Handle Animal +4 .......[1 ranks, +3 chr]
- Hide +3 ................[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Intimidate +6 ..........[3 ranks, +3 chr]
- Move silent +3 .........[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Open lock +3 ...........[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Perform (oratary) +8 ...[5 ranks, +3 chr]
- Ride +3 ................[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Search +3 ..............[1 ranks, +2 int]
- Sense motive +3 ........[5 ranks, -2 wis]
- Sleight of Hand +7 .....[5 ranks, +2 dex]
- Spellcraft +5 ..........[3 ranks, +2 int]
- Spot -1 ................[1 ranks, -2 wis]
- Tumble +3 ..............[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Surivival -1 ...........[1 ranks, -2 wis]

Feats: Brew Potion, Spellcasting (sorcerer level 1 & 2]

Languages: Common, (int bonus lang), (int bonus language)

Spells:
Spells per Day: 6/5
Spells Known 0th:
- Mage Hand
- Detect Magic
- Read Magic
- Mending
- Prestidigitation
Spells Known 1st:
- Summon Monster 1
- Magic Missle

Equipment:
Worn/Carried:
- Hvy Mace .........(08.0 lb)
- Dagger ...........(01.0 lb)
- Light xbow .......(04.0 lb)
- - 10 bolts .......(01.0 lb)
- Sling ............(---- lb)
- - 10 bullets .....(05.0 lb)
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb.)
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb.)

In Sack ............(01.0 lb)
- bedroll ..........(05.0 lb)
- blanket ..........(03.0 lb)
- Rations (2) ......(02.0 lb)
- Tanglefoot .......(04.0 lb)
- Alchemist fire ...(01.0 lb)
- waterskin ........(04.0 lb)
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb)

In Pouch ...........(00.5 lb)
- chalk ............(---- lb)
- fishhook .........(---- lb)
- flint&steel ......(---- lb)
- antitoxen ........(---- lb)
- tindertwig (4) ...(---- lb)
- 4gp, 12sp, 22cp ..(XX.X lb)
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb)

Spell pouch ........(02.0 lb)

Total Carried ......(41.5 lb)

On Mount:
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb)
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb)

Appearance:

Height: 5'7"
Weight: 173 lbs
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Brown
Age: 26

Fenix is an average looking human, 5' 7", he is neither very tall nor short and at 150 pounds not too thin or heavy. His brown hair and eyes do nothing else to establish him, but he has a smooth rolling deep voice, and a gleaming white smile which he uses to great effect when selling his wares.

Personality:

*Full write up coming*

Backstory:

*Full write up coming*


Extra special potions:
Fenix's fine extra special youth restorative (men) - Garantueed to put more hair on your head and more juice in your johnson! (5)
Fenix's felicitating female fancy facial masq (women) - Smooth it on every night and watch the wrinkles fade away! That tingling senasation means it's working! Can also be used to dye hair and clothing! (7)
Fenix's filtered functional fix em up good fast acting frappe! - Too busy to go to the clerics, need a quick and simple fix for a quick and simple problem, or just plain having a bad day? Try a dose of the Fast Acting Fix em up! Makes all your trouble seem so far away, it's like they belong to yesterday! (10)


-- CELESTIAL CREATURES --

Celestial creatures dwell on the upper planes, the realms of good, although they resemble beings found on the Material Plane. They are more regal and more beautiful than their earthly counterparts.

Celestial creatures often come in metallic colors (usually silver, gold, or platinum). They can be mistaken for half-celestials, more powerful creatures that are created when a celestial mates with a non-celestial creature.

Alignment: Always good (any).

-- BADGER --
Small Animal
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft., burrow 10 ft.
Defense: +6 (+2 brb, +1 size, +3 dex)
Soak: +3 (+1 natural, +2 con)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–5
Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d2–5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d2–5) and bite –1 melee (1d3–5)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Rage (Ex): A badger that takes damage in combat flies into a berserk rage on its next turn, clawing and biting madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and –2 to Armor Class. The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily.; Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision; Scent; Darkvision out to 60 feet; Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5; Spell Resistance 6
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Escape Artist +7, Listen +3, Spot +3
Feats: TrackB, Weapon Finesse
Environment:

Description: The badger is a furry animal with a squat, powerful body. Its strong forelimbs are armed with long claws for digging. An adult badger is 2 to 3 feet long and weighs 25 to 35 pounds.
Combat: Badgers attack with their sharp claws and teeth.
Skills: A badger has a +4 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks.


-- DOG --
Small Animal
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Defense: +4 (+1 size, +3 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Soak 3 (+1 natural, +2 con)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–3
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4-3)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4-3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision; scent; darkvision out to 60 feet; Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5; Spell Resistance 6
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +7, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +1*
Feats: Alertness, TrackB
Environment:

Skills: Dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks. *Dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


-- HAWK --
Tiny Animal
Initiative: +3
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 17 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Soak +0 (+2 natural, -8 size)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–10
Attack: Talons +5 melee (1d4–10)
Full Attack: Talons +5 melee (1d4–10)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision; Darkvision out to 60 feet; Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5; Spell Resistance 6
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +14
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Temperate forests

Description: These creatures are similar to eagles but slightly smaller: 1 to 2 feet long, with wingspans of 6 feet or less.
Combat: Hawks combine both talons into a single attack.
Skills: Hawks have a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks.


-- OWL --
Tiny Animal
Initiative: +3
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
Defense: 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Soak: 0 (+2 natural, -8 size)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–11
Attack: Talons +5 melee (1d4–3)
Full Attack: Talons +5 melee (1d4–3)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision; Darkvision out to 60 feet; Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5; Spell Resistance 6
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +14, Move Silently +17, Spot +6*
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Temperate forests

Description: The statistics presented here describe nocturnal birds of prey from 1 to 2 feet long, with wingspans up to 6 feet. They combine both talons into a single attack.
Combat: Owls swoop quietly down onto prey, attacking with their powerful talons.
Skills: Owls have a +8 racial bonus on Listen checks and a +14 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. *They have a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks in areas of shadowy illumination.

-- Build Notes --

-- Level 1 [12 CP build] --
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
base saves: +2 Will, +1 Fort, +1 Reflex [3]
skill points: 4 [auto] +2 [int] +1 [human] +4 [2] = 11*4 = 44
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: Brew Potion [human], entry class: Cast spells as 1st level Sorcerer [5]

-- Level 2 [8 CP build] --
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.25 [1]
bases saves: +1 Will [auto], +1 Fort [1]
skills points: 4 [auto] +2 [int] +1 [human] +4 [2] = 11 (+4)
feats: progression class: Sorcerer spellcasting 2 [4]

-- Notes --

Complete equipment list

*khavren, at this point we can leave this part. I haven't been over it all, but is this all ment to be on the wagon?*[/sblock]

If I could have afforded magic armor, I definitly would have gotten it. As it is currently, I might be stripping these orcs of their armor just to have something. Originally I didn't get anything to avoid spell failure problems, and I hoped to just stay far back from trouble and let my magic minions do the work for me.

I'll check over for synergies and update as I find them, the extra 4 I'll just split into spot and survival.

Everything from the complete gear list that I'm not carrying is locked up in the wagon, I'm assuming the mules are stabled somewhere as well.

Can you recomend two languages to cover my bonus language slots, or can I learn them in game as we encounter new groups?

 

[khavren]

For skills, how about your int bonus plus the key attribute bonus is how far you can go with 1 per 1 buying and after that it starts doubling. for example, +3 int bonus and a +2 str bonus, it's easy for you to learn to swim well, so you can buy 5 ranks without a problem, but past that you have to pay double, so the 6th rank would cost 2, then 4, etc. And for someone who is weaker, it's harder for them to learn the skill, so the double cost kicks in sooner.

 

[Maerdwyn]

I've typed a response seveal time, and always seemed to lose it (grrr). Despite the length, this is just brainstorming - feel free to discard it wholesale .

Anyway, my thoughts were along the same lines as Seonaid's in that I like the idea of tying skill points, not just skills to abilities:
-1 skill point per rank you are trying to achieve
-Skill points have to come from the ability tied to the skill. Alternatively, you can spend points from other abilities at half value.
-At first level, you get 1 skill point for every ability point you have.
-At each level after 1st, you gain skill points from one ability of you choice, plus 4 general points that can be spent anywhere.

So if you had Fredar's ability array, you could start with:
[sblock]
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 16.
STR 15, Granting 15 skill points at 1st level. 14 spent on STR skills, 1 left over):
Climb 4 (1+2+3+4=10 points)
Jump 2 (1+2=3 points)
Swim 1 (1 point)

DEX (17 skill points, all spent):
Hide 4 (1+2+3+4=10 points)
Tumble 3 (1+2+3=6 points)
Sleight of hand 1 (1 point)


CON (11 skill points. 10 spent on CON skill, 1 left over):
Concentration 4 (10 points)


INT (10 skill points, all spent on INT skills)
Search 3 (6 points)
Disable Device 2 (3 points)
Appraise 1 (1 point)

WIS (7 skill points, all spent on WIS skills)
Spot 3 (6 points)
Listen 1 (1 point)

CHA (17 skill points, all spent on CHA skills. 1 left over STR point + 1 left over CON point=one more CHA skill point)
Perform (Sing) 4 (10 points)
Bluff 3 (6 points)
Diplomacy 1 (using the points left over in STR and CON)
[/sblock]

At second level, he would get 16 skill points from his CHA score (raising Perform to 5, Bluff to 4, Diplomacy to 4, Perform (lute) to 1 and Gather Information to 1) and 4 general points (raising his Tumble to 4). When he above 5th level, he become unable to max out even two of his CHA based skills - he need to really specialize form that point on in order to kep advancing. Or he can broaden his skills and remain versatile but not accomplished.

*************
The other idea (and this is separate from the above stuff) I was batting around was using general skills (Like "Athletics") that gets paired with more specific skills (Swim and Climb), where you get two modifiers to your roll - your general aptitude for the type of activity you are attempting, plus the roll for your training in the particular facet of the activity.

To become more athletic in general, is very difficult (so this would use the 1+2+3 skill points to get to rank 3 model), but once you are athletic, being trained further in swimming is easier(one point per rank in the specific skill). You can only have as many ranks in the specific skill as you have in the general one.

So getting Athletic 4 (Swim 4, Climb 4) would cost: 1+2+3+4+4+4=18 skill points (4 ranks in a specific skill seems to be about where it become more expensive than the original system). Under this system, I would use the normal, INT based skill points, maybe increased just a little if desired.

This system encourages breadth, but not acheivement - the general skills are used as the modifier in "untrained" situations, so you get a bang for your skill points by advancing them. Eventually though, it would be too expensive to keep advancing your general apptitudes for Athletics or Academics or Agility.

Example:[sblock]

Fredar started off play with 28 skill points, and put ranks into Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently, Perform(singing), Sleight of hand, and Tumble.

Under the propose system Those skills might be grouped as follows(along with how Fredar might have spent his skill points on them) :

General Skill:
....Specialty
....Specialty

Persuasion 2 (2 ranks of Persuasion costs 1+2=3 skill points):
....Bluff 2 (2 ranks of the Persuasion specialty Bluff costs 2 skill points)
....Diplomacy 1
....Intimidate 1

Reconnaissance 1 (1 point)
....Gather Information 1 (1 point)
....Research 0

Sneak: 2 (3 skill points)
....Hide 2 (2 points)
....Move Sliently 1 (1 points)

Musician: 3 (6 skill points)
....Singing 3 (3 skill points)
....Oratory
....Woodwinds

Agility: 2 (3 skill points)
....Climb
....Tumbling

[/sblock]
To make a skill check, your roll=d20+General skill rank+specific skill rank+ability modifier

His skills are slightly higher under this system than they were originally, but only at the first could levels.

Fredar's Perform(signing) has a total bonus of +9 at first level, compares to a total bonus of +7 under the original system. At second level, if he wants to go to +10, however, it will cost him all four of his skill points (since his general skill has to be improved before the specific one, and he can't go beyond that without saving up skill points or spending CP on them

Now that I go through this with an example, it may provide a little too much in the way of breadth of skills, but it was an idea

 

[Seonaid]

I'm not sure I understand Maerdwyn's skill point array in the spoiler. Where do the alloted number of skill points come from? The idea seems good, but I'm not sure I understand the mechanics.

As for the general skills, how would the first roll affect the second? Would a low roll on the general skill mean that any roll on the specific would fail? How would the two combine or interact? I'm not sure I like that system as well, though I am not sure how it would work.

--Seonaid, feelin' dumb

 

[Maerdwyn]

No Seonaid, that was Maerdwyn being unclear, not Seonaid being dumb

I had things written out a lot clearer and lost the post twice before just slapping it down that last time. I'm editing that post now for clarity.

edit: okay, some example added. doghead, I'm done cluttering your thread for a while

 

[doghead]

Skills Wow. Some great stuff here. Thanks. Initially I was inclined to stick with just using intelligence for a number of reasons.

metagame I Intelligence is not really used for anything else but skill points. If you have a character with little use for (Int) skills, then Intelligence becomes a very easy dump stat.

metagame II I wanted to keep the bookkeeping to a minimum.

as model of reality* In my experience, skill development is not so much a function of natural ability or talent, but the ability to evaluate performance and find ways to improve. Natural ability and talent are already accounted for by the stat bonus and feats respectively. On the other hand, a character's self analysis and development ability is probably best reflected by their Intelligence (with wisdom a possible alternative, although wisdom is perhaps a better reflection of our willingness to turn a light on our own limitations).

* although given the complexity of what we are trying to model with the system, any workable solution is going to be, at best, at odds with reality in may ways.

The idea of general skills and speciallisations also has appeal. Another game I play (Dominion System) uses something similar. The general skills give you the coverage, and the specialisations give you the expertise in areas of particular interest. It also means that a well educated character (with 4-5 ranks in Knowledge (General) for example) would have some chance of knowing about something, even if they haven't specifically studied it. But I wonder if the benefits outweight the disadvantages of an increase in rewriting of the rules, and the increased difficulty of adapting from regular dnd. But I'm not really sure. It would help to see how this would look when put together.

Just for something to compare, I drew up a Level 10 character last night. I had the Captain Commander (Lisa's father) in mind as I did it. After building the first 3 levels, I wondered if I could do a quick and dirty version. This is what I came up with.[bq]Level 10 [12/8 Build] - 84 CP in total.
21 CP: BAB +6
18 CP: Saves Fort +3 [6], Ref +3 [6], Will +3 [6].
04 CP: Skills (level 1) 12 [int] +8 [4] = 20*4 = 80 skill points.
04 CP: Skills (level 2, 3) 12 [int] +4 [2] = 16*2 = 32 skill points.
14 CP: Skills (level 4-10) 13 [int] +4 [2] = 17*7 = 119 skill points.
23 CP: Feats - 5 x general entry [4], 1 x general progression [3].

231 skill points allows for 2 x 10 ranks (110 skillpoints), 8 x 5 ranks (120 points), 1 x 1 rank.[/bq]

 

[DrZombie]

I'll leave the skill point tinkering to you guys, if you don't mind. This is giving me a slight headache .

Now, where did i put the notes for nate's second level...

 

[DrZombie]

Doghead :
I've found and edited the lvl 2 build of Nate. It's on page 1 of this thread. One question : the power attack feat is pretty useless in this system. the only reasen I took it is to be able to take "cleave" next level. Is that OK with you?