[ooc] gng - nameless [4/4]

[doghead]

khavren: You can get out of your armour (hide) no problem. The rules for getting in and out of armour can be found here. I'd also be inclined to say that if you spend double the normal casting time (free action to std action, std action to full action etc.), you can reduce the spell failure chance by 10%. Given the unseamly haste with which everything happens in dnd (the modern world has nothing on the world of dnd for hustle!), this seems reasonable. Thoughts anyone?

The rings will need some cleaning and attention by a smith I think before the inscription becomes more readable.

DrZ: Seems a bit harsh to have to take a feat of no value just to get another feat. Someone mentioned 1:1.5 or 1:2 {to hit penalty}:{damage bonus} exchange. But this would make things rather more deadly than they already are. *ogres with power attack .. yum.* 1:1.5? 1:2? Something else entirely? Thoughts?

BTW, unless there is an overwhelming outpouring of popular demand to do so, I wasn't planning on changing the skill point system in this game. I was just messing around with ideas and using you as my sounding board.

While we are at it ...

(Feat) Shield Focus: Add +1 shield bonus to you Defense when using a shield. Stacks with the normal shield bonus. Prereq: AP (Shield).

(Feat) Shield Mastery: You may use your shield as a weapon during melee. (basically TWF, but with a shield as the off hand weapon. Uses the same penalties.) If the basic shield bonus (+1 buckler, +2 light, +3 heavy) is less than or equal to your Str bonus, you treat the shield as a light weapon for determining the penalties. Although, come to think of it, that is not going to work with smaller/larger size creatures. Hummm.

 

[DrZombie]

Yeah, well, now that I'm thinking of it, not only does power attack makes little sense, the cleave feat by itself makes little sense using the GnG system. Chances of dropping someone with a single stroke are small. Maybe I should just give up on the whole thing and look for something else. Armor prof (med) would be a bit of a munchkinesque move, I'll keep that untill the next level. Toughness might be a good one...

 

[DrZombie]

Allright, doghead, i've given the character creation thinghie a quick testrun.
I've tried to be a fairly firm GM. Some of the problems:
- Prestige classes : I've loosely modeled the level progression on the wolfbrother prestige class from the Wheel of Time. However, if you try to emulate this you're lacking in character points unless you consider the various feats to be following on each other, reducing the cost to 3
I've done this with tracking->scent, because that seemed kinda logical.
I haven't done that with low-light vision or animal companion. You could rule that those are continuouiouous feats in a sense that they're part of the prestige class.
The yellow eyes seemed kinda cool. They're in the PClasss, but in the books the character is mistrusted because of them, so I kanda turned it into a flaw. I like flaws.
-I've followed the rage progression as in the books : rage 1/d, 2/d, 3/d, greater rage, 4/5, 5/d.... I think that's according to the spirit of the rules, but according to the letter i could take rage 1/d (5) greater rage (3) Tireless rage (3) Mighty rage (3)... Kinda silly to have a lvl 4 character have migty rage.
-I've paid for the damage reduction as a new line of feat progressions, paying 5 for the first and then 3 for the next. However, you could just consider damage reduction, rage, trap sense and such to be "barbarian progressions", paying 5 for the first and 3 for the rest. I dunno. For a barb it won't matter much but for a monk it'll cost a lot more to recreate the class since they have a lot of feats that aren't really progressive feats.


Anyway, this is not a defenite scetch, just an excercise. Whaddaya think?




Nate L10 classless build
Nathan Ay'Tennar
Human Male1
Concept: Blacksmith gone feral


Height: 6'3"
Weight: 210 lbs
Eyes: Black
Hair: Black
Age: 17

Initiative: +1 [+1 Dex]
Speed: 30 ft.
Defense: +2 [+2 BDB]
Soak: +5 [+2 Con, +3 Armour]
Base Attack Bonus: +10
* melee +16/+11 Mace, hvy (1d8+4, x2)
* ranged +12/+7 Sling (1d4+4, xX, xx ft.)
Full Attack: --
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Human Traits.
Saves: Fortitude 6/+9, Reflex 2/+3, Will 6/+8.
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
Feats: Power Attack, Skill Focus (Craft).Shield prof. Med armor prof, Rage 5/d, Greater Rage, Tracking, Scent, Damage Reduction 3/-, Low-Light, Yellow Eyes*, Animal Companion,
Dodge, Mobility, Weapon focus : Heavy Mace
*Yellow eyes, like a wolf, -2 on social skills, +2 on intimidation.
Languages: Common, Dwarven, Gnomisch.

-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
base saves: will +1, will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] + 4 [2] = 11x4 = 44
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: power attack [human], entry: skill focus (craft) [4], entry: Shield prof [3].

Level 2 [8 pt build]

bab 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
Fort +1, Will +1 [1]
Skill points : 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] = 7
feats : Rage 1/d [5]

Level 3
bab 0.5 +0.5 (2)
Med Armor Prof (3)
Rage 2/d (3)
Skill pts 4+1+2=7
Fort save +1
Dodge (free)

Level 4
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Tracking (4)
Skill pts 4+1+2+2=9 (1)
Fort +1, Refl +1 (1)
+1 to Con (free)

Level 5
bab 0.5+0.5
Rage 3/d (3)
Scent (3)
Skill pts = 4+1+2=7
Fort +1

Lvl 6
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Damage Reduction 1/- (5)
Skills 4+1+2+2=9 (1)
Refl +1
Mobility (free)

Lvl 7
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Greater Rage (3)
Low-Light Vision (5)
Yellow Eyes (-2)
Skills 4+1+2=7
Will +1

Lvl 8
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Animal Companion (5)
Fort +1
Will +1 (1)
Skills 4+1+2=7
Str +1 (free)

Lvl 9
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Dmg Red 2/- (3)
Rage 4/d (3)
Skill 4+1+2=7
Fort +1

Lvl 10
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Dmg red 3/- (3)
Rage 5/d (3)
Skills 4+1+2=7
Will +1

 

[doghead]

Jeez DrZ. First I can't get you to get your current L2 character up to date. Now you're waving a L10 character around. Sheesh.

Always liked Perrin myself. I'll give your build a going over asap (but probably not before this weekend).

If anyone else has any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, please feel free to add them to the discussion. Actually, if anyone else wants to map out their characters progression, feel free to do so. Particularly if it is something unusual. As Dr Z noted, some things are easy, some (like the Bard's Bardic Music) are more difficult.

While I was tempted to use the character you have had in the RG thread, the character I have been using for you is as below: [sblock]Nathan Ay'Tennar
Human Male 2
Concept: Blacksmith/Militian.

Leathal --
Subdural -

Height: 6'3"
Weight: 210 lbs
Eyes: Black
Hair: Black
Age: 17

Initiative: +1 _____________[+1 Dex]
Speed: 30 ft.
Defense: +3 ________________[+2 bab, +1 dex]
Soak: +5 ___________________[+2 Con, +3 Armour]
Base Attack Bonus: +2
* melee +5 Mace, hvy (1d8+3, x2)
* melee +5 Large hammer (1d10+4, x3)
* ranged +2 Sling (1d4+3, xX, xx ft.)
Full Attack: --
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Human Traits.
Saves: Fortitude 1/+3, Reflex 0/+1, Will 3/+5.
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills:
* Craft (blacksmith) 5/+9 [+2 Int, +2 Feat],
* Craft (weapons & armor) 5/+9 [+2 Int, +2 Feat],
* Craft (silversmith) 5/+9 [+2 Int, +2 Feat],
* Diplomacy 5/+5,
* Handle Animal 5/+5,
* Knowledge (engineering) 5/+7 [+2 Int],
* Open Lock 5/+6 [+1 Dex],
* Search 5/+5,
* Spot 5/+5 [+2 Wis],
* Sense Motive 5/+7 [+2 Wis]
* Swim 1/+4 [+3 Str]
Feats: Power Attack, Skill Focus (Craft), Shield prof Languages: Common, Dwarven, Gnomisch.
Equipment:
* Worn/Carried: Heavy Mace, Knife, sling stones(20), sling, Chainmail shirt, Backpack, Pouch, Coin, Travellers outfit, Heavy cloak (on inside of cloak, wrapped in oil paper : gun+ 12 charges.)
* In Backpack: Swag (bedroll), small cocking pot, two fishooks and some fine rope, handaxe, flint&steel, oil and sand for weapon/armor maintenance, whetstone, thick rope, canvas, two waterskins (full), two waterskins (empty), Camping gear (the usual).
* In Pouch: spare flint&steel, money, oddly shaped stone, dice
* On Mount: --

Appearance, Personality and Backstory <snipped>.

-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
base saves: will +1, will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] + 4 [2] = 11x4 = 44
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: power attack [human], entry: skill focus (craft) [4], entry: Shield prof [3].

Level 2 [8 pt build]

bab 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
Fort +1, Will +1 [1]
Skill points : 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] = 7
feats : Rage 1/d [5][/sblock]
Taking AP (medium) at L2 might be a tad muchi-kinie. But changing out of Power Attack if we don't do anything with it should be OK.

 

[doghead]

Nate L10

DrZ: I had a look over Nate. You're right, according to the RAW, you could take Rage 1/day [5], Greater Rage [3], Tireless Rage [3] etc. However, following the barabarian class progression I agree is more in the spirit of things.

You're also right about needing more points to emulate a 'regular' class. That was the case for most of the examples I tried. You can have a spellcasting Druid, or a Wildshaping Druid, but not both (at least at the same ability as 'core class' Druid of the same level).

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of a 'barbarian' (or Druid, or Bard) progression. On the one hand, it is a way to even out some of the bumps. But on the other, it leads straight back to where we came from - classes. Of course, the option not to take any class type progression still remains. Perhaps its better to ignore the whole 'how would this fit together into a coherant whole' question and just do it on 'need to sort out' basis.

It also occured to me that, going the the whole animal totem analogy, you might be better with the Wolverine than the Wolf given the former's Rage ability.

Some other thoughts:

Damage Reduction (L6, L9, L10): I wonder if there is a need for both Toughness and DR. Perhaps we could just use a Toughness progression Toughness I, II, II, etc. Or abandon Toughness and use just DR.

Yelloweyes (L7): I'd rather stay away from 'flaws' with negative CP costs. I'd be more inclined to go with tying the flaw into the scent feat, and call its something else. I would also be inclined to make the effect of the flaw a little more of a cost hinderance. For example, the attitude of npc's who notice the Yelloweyes will deteriate by one catagory. Shopkeepers go from being indifferent to unfriendly, for example.

XXX (L9): You haven't taken anything for your level nine feat.
[sblock]--- Build Notes ---
-- 12/8 CP Build --

- Level 1 [12 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
base saves: will +1, will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] +4 [2] = 11x4 = 44
feats: AP (light) [auto], WP (simple) [auto], power attack [human], skill focus (craft) [4], AP (shield) [3].


- Level 2 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: Fort +1 [auto], Will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats : Rage 1/d [5]

- Level 3 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: fort +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: AP (medium) [3], Rage 2/d [3], Dodge [L3]

- Level 4 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: fort +1 [auto], ref +1 [1]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] +2 [1] = 9
feats: track [4]
stats: Con +1 [L4 increase]

- Level 5 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: fort +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: Rage 3/d [3], << scent [3] >>

- Level 6 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: refl +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] +2 [1] = 9
feats: << Damage Reduction 1/- [5] >>, Mobility [L6]

- Level 7 << [8 cp] >> -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: will +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: Greater Rage [3], Low-Light Vision [5], << Yellow Eyes [-2] >>

- Level 8 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: fort +1 [auto], will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: Animal Companion [5]
stats: Str +1 [L8 increase]

- Level 9 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: fort +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: << DR 2/- [3] >>, Rage 4/d [3], << XXX [L9] >>

- Level 10 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: will +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: << DR 3/- [3] >>, Rage 5/d [3][/sblock]
Thoughts anyone?

Maerdwyn: we never really came to a conclusion with the bardic music. Do you still want to go down this path. If you do, we should sort it out now.

 

[DrZombie]

Thanks, doghead, for the quick review. It's more of a test-drive of the system then a detailed roadmap of the next eight levels, really. I might swap some feats around and such. Just wondering what you thought about it.

 

[Seonaid]

All of the numbers swim before my eyes and I'm not sure what to make of them (I can't even really study them without wanting to curl into a ball and cry). However, here is my opinion: I really like the idea of a classless system. I think that players should be free to choose what they get and when, within some sort of frame (for example, the amount of CPs). The only time when this would be a problem is when you have munchkin players. It would cause more work for the GM, but it could be a requirement that all levels are accompanied by a description of how the new abilities/feats/skills were gained. I mean, technically, that should be happening anyway, and it's just not stated outright. However, I know that even I (perfect as I am ) sometimes choose things that just don't make sense because I want that cool new feat or I need some skill set to get the PrC I want. Making players write out thoughtful analyses of each level would curb that, and if they refuse, the GM has the option of saying, "Well, until you do that, I won't give you your new stats and I'll be rolling based on the previous level--too bad your HP and AC are so low," etc.

Edit: Did I mention that I really, really like classless systems? It does make it slightly more difficult for someone like me who can't crunch numbers, but the storyteller in me really does love it.

 

[Maerdwyn]

Hey guys -

Just got Sophia back from the hospital a couple hours ago. I'll take a look at all this in the next day or so and post something soon

-Ian

 

[Seonaid]

Good ta have ya back.

 

[Maerdwyn]

Maerdwyn: we never really came to a conclusion with the bardic music. Do you still want to go down this path. If you do, we should sort it out now.

Unfortunately, , I kind of would like to go down this path.

1)If we make the most direct translation from the PHB, You end up with Bardic Music as an entry class feat. The character spends 5cp, then spends skill points to get his Perform rank up enough to use the same music to produce different effects. Each use per day beyond 1 would cost 3cp. This model's versatility may be too great compared to the cost of other feat progressions (Rage is one single ability, but 2 Rages per day would cost the same as two uses of any of the various Bardic effects the character chooses at the time)

2)If each effect cost a feat per daily use, you get the most a la carte way to do the music, but the cost quickly outstrips the benefits of bardic music: one gets a lot more in terms of effectiveness by progressing as a spell caster, for less cp. (The base effect of Bardic music is Fascinate. By spending 5cp, a character can either fascinate 1/day, or take a level of Sorcerer casting, and cast Fascinate - or his other 1st level spell - 3 or more times per day depending on his Charisma.

3)Another way to do it would be to fold the Bard's music effects into his magical progression; that is, translate the bardic music effects into "spells". They can either remain spells or made into non-magical effects of the singing. In the latter case, we might want to change the spell list around a bit for flavor reasons. The advantage would be that bardic music could mechanically be handled like any other spell caster's magic progression.

Any other approaches people ccan think of?