OOC : Shopping for magic items in...

[elecgraystone]

LOL A better one is you and the bad guys take a short rest at the same time so you play some dice with them until it was time to fight. You lost 360gp but won a +1 amulet! Too bad the guy you lost your money to just slipped away...

 

[JoeNotCharles]

JoeNotCharles, my main argument is that you have different DC's based on the item and level. It should be based on the enchanter and his level really. I'm thinking that people that sell rituals like to make money so it's not very hard to find out who does that. In fact, they WANT word of mouth, so when someone wants to put down 2000+gp, they come looking for them.

If something has come up and the person you know can't do it, that'd be a check but again it should me MUCH easier than the DC's you have. It's in their best interest to 'put the word out' that they aren't available and it wouldn't surprise me if they'd have a replacement [friend, apprentice ect]. You don't want your customers going to the enchanter down the street because you were out of town on a shopping trip.

Item level, enchanter level, what's the difference? If I want a level 10 item, I'm going to need to find a level 10 enchanter.

And I disagree with your picture of wizards putting out flyers advertising their item creation services. I think wizards are rare and busy people - common enough that finding one to take your money is a fairly difficult Streetwise check, not a complete quest, but still far, far rarer than blacksmiths and tradesmen.

 

[elecgraystone]

Item level, enchanter level, what's the difference? If I want a level 10 item, I'm going to need to find a level 10 enchanter.

Because you have the DC vary from 5, 15 and 25 + item level. If the guy is making a 10th level item, does it matter if it's a one use item, a normal item of a set item? As you said, it just matters if he's 10th. And why would it be easier to find the same person if you want him to make a lower level item?

And I disagree with your picture of wizards putting out flyers advertising their item creation services. I think wizards are rare and busy people - common enough that finding one to take your money is a fairly difficult Streetwise check, not a complete quest, but still far, far rarer than blacksmiths and tradesmen.

Enchanters do NOT equal Wizards. Why wouldn't there be blacksmiths, tradesmen AND enchanters? I can't see why there wouldn't be people that can do enchantments that go into business instead of adventuring. Much safer and easy work than robbing dragons for a living. you just make your EXP from skill challenges instead of fighting.

Why do you think all people that can enchant are world hopping, busy wizards? Heck, people have no problem finding people to rasie them from the dead do they? That's a ritual too isn't it?

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Heck, people have no problem finding people to rasie them from the dead do they? That's a ritual too isn't it?

That's a very good point. If the good folks at the Temple of Lauto (or whomever - several major temples in Daunton) can raise you from the dead, they also have the potential to make up to level 8 items at least. Anyone with the Ritual Caster feat can learn any ritual, remember, and the Enchant Magic Item ritual requires no check, so the caster doesn't even need to be a good arcanist. If the blacksmith is 'powerful' enough, there's no reason he can't do his own enchanting.

Besides, with some of the things we've seen in a number of adventures based in Daunton, it seems that Daunton leans more towards the high magic end of things than low magic.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

Because you have the DC vary from 5, 15 and 25 + item level. If the guy is making a 10th level item, does it matter if it's a one use item, a normal item of a set item? As you said, it just matters if he's 10th. And why would it be easier to find the same person if you want him to make a lower level item?

Technically I don't believe you can enchant a set item - I haven't looked it up, but item sets are supposed to be unique. I wouldn't allow it even if the book doesn't say one way or the other.

One use items are easier to create than full items - in fact, for a lot of them you just need to find an alchemist, not a full wizard. So I think it would be easier to find someone willing to create one than to find someone willing to create a full item.

If I'm looking for someone to make a level 10 item, why on earth would I ask to find an enchanter of higher than level 10? It just makes my DC's higher for no reason! Sure, the DM can say, "Good news! That high roll allows you to find a Level 15 enchanter, not just the Level 10 enchanter you're looking for!" But what good was that do me if I'm just going to have him create a level 10 item anyway?

(Ok, next time I want a Level 15 item, I can just say, "I'll go back to the Level 15 enchanter I already know!" At which point it's the DM's decision whether I can use the same resource or if he's unavailable and I need to roll again. But if I was just rolling "to find an item", and not searching specifically for an enchanter, then I could go back to the magic shop I found, or the thieves' guild, or whatever, so I still don't see a difference. This is all a guideline anyway - DM's are free to let players buy stuff automatically if they want.)

Enchanters do NOT equal Wizards. Why wouldn't there be blacksmiths, tradesmen AND enchanters? I can't see why there wouldn't be people that can do enchantments that go into business instead of adventuring. Much safer and easy work than robbing dragons for a living. you just make your EXP from skill challenges instead of fighting.

Why do you think all people that can enchant are world hopping, busy wizards? Heck, people have no problem finding people to rasie them from the dead do they? That's a ritual too isn't it?

Because I like my magicians to have some sense of mystery to them, even in a high-fantasy world. I specifically don't want magic users to be commodities you can count on. Raise Dead is a special case because being unable to raise your character from the dead brings the whole game to a halt.

This is the kind of thing that needs to be put to a vote and get the input of all the players - how common are NPC magic users in this setting, and can you expect to be able to hire them out for a fee?

Clearly this is a matter of taste, and your taste is on the other end of the spectrum from mine. However, I do think you're approaching this from the wrong angle in another sense. You're trying to work out how common it would be to hire an enchanter, and from that work out the DC to create magic items, and using "common sense" rules like, "Once you've found an enchanter, he'll do anything you want, so all magic items should be equal." But this is not the 4E way. The 4E way is, "Figure out how easily you want your players to be able to get magic items, and set the DC based on that. Then construct a narrative explaining what happens when they hit or miss the DC." I think the DC should be different for consumables and full magic items because this is useful, and then the game world should be constructed around this. You say that the DC's should be equal because all items take the same effort to create - I say that consumables must be easier to create, because the DC's are not equal!

 

[KenHood]

You guys should just go buy your stuff from Swillwort.

Reasonable enchantments for reasonable prices.

 

[elecgraystone]

Technically I don't believe you can enchant a set item - I haven't looked it up, but item sets are supposed to be unique. I wouldn't allow it even if the book doesn't say one way or the other.

Ok, looked at AV2 and item sets are normal items and non-unique. The only thing different is they work in tandom with other items. They are just as easy to enchant as any other item of their level.

One use items are easier to create than full items - in fact, for a lot of them you just need to find an alchemist, not a full wizard. So I think it would be easier to find someone willing to create one than to find someone willing to create a full item.

A tenth level alchemist would as hard to find as a tenth level enchanter. it's just as hard to get to that level isn't it? And really, more people get the ritual caster feat for free than alchemy. In fact I'd expect it harder to find an alchemist since it's low profit, high volume while the enchanter is high profit, low volume. More time for the enchanter to do other things.

If I'm looking for someone to make a level 10 item, why on earth would I ask to find an enchanter of higher than level 10?

When I first go looking for an enchanter, I'm not looking for any exact level. I look for an enchanter, roll the dice and the DC I make can tell me what level I found. If it was above what I needed I keep him in mind when I need another enchant that's his level or lower. Who in the world looks for an enchanter exactly the level you need?

(Ok, next time I want a Level 15 item, I can just say, "I'll go back to the Level 15 enchanter I already know!" At which point it's the DM's decision whether I can use the same resource or if he's unavailable and I need to roll again. But if I was just rolling "to find an item", and not searching specifically for an enchanter, then I could go back to the magic shop I found, or the thieves' guild, or whatever, so I still don't see a difference. This is all a guideline anyway - DM's are free to let players buy stuff automatically if they want.)

Finding an item and not asking where it's from brings up a whole other set of problems. An established enchanter isn't going to screw you as he wants you to return next time you want something. The thieves guild might sell you a 'hot' item and the magic stall might give you a malfunctioning one. I prefer to know ahead of time who I deal with.

Because I like my magicians to have some sense of mystery to them, even in a high-fantasy world. I specifically don't want magic users to be commodities you can count on. Raise Dead is a special case because being unable to raise your character from the dead brings the whole game to a halt.

This seems to be at odds with the world as it is. Every priest, wizard, bard and artificer in the world is an enchanter. It should be hard in a town as big as we are in to swing a dead cat and not hit an enchanter.

This is the kind of thing that needs to be put to a vote and get the input of all the players - how common are NPC magic users in this setting, and can you expect to be able to hire them out for a fee?

I wish you would stop saying magic users. These are people that have the ritual caster feat. That's ALL. When around 1 out of 4 of the classes has the feat for free, it doesn't sound that wonderous and magical. They should be a fairly common thing and you really should only have issues if you are looking for things out of heroic tier or you move to a backwater area.

Clearly this is a matter of taste, and your taste is on the other end of the spectrum from mine. However, I do think you're approaching this from the wrong angle in another sense. You're trying to work out how common it would be to hire an enchanter, and from that work out the DC to create magic items, and using "common sense" rules like, "Once you've found an enchanter, he'll do anything you want, so all magic items should be equal." But this is not the 4E way. The 4E way is, "Figure out how easily you want your players to be able to get magic items, and set the DC based on that. Then construct a narrative explaining what happens when they hit or miss the DC." I think the DC should be different for consumables and full magic items because this is useful, and then the game world should be constructed around this. You say that the DC's should be equal because all items take the same effort to create - I say that consumables must be easier to create, because the DC's are not equal!

Easier to create and easier to find are two different things. If I'm looking for a 12th level consumable, I have an easier time than finding a 3rd level weapon? Sorry, don't think so. Ritual caster is a default for several classes. You have to go out of your way to take Alchemist. Why would the alchemy items be easier to find?

And there is one thing you are missing. An alchemist spends an hour and makes 2 alchemy fire's and can sell them for 140gp. The enchanter spends an hour and makes a +1 dagger and sells if for 360. For the same amount of work the enchanter made over twice as much in the same time. The gap only get bigger as the levels go upward. It's easier to make money enchanting.

As far as "Figure out how easily you want your players to be able to get magic items, and set the DC based on that". Yes, that;s fine for the FIRST time. I need a DC check every time I go to get lunch? Once I know where something is, why do I need to keep checking to find it? If I need to, I'll buy a map and mark it.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

I wish you would stop saying magic users. These are people that have the ritual caster feat. That's ALL. When around 1 out of 4 of the classes has the feat for free, it doesn't sound that wonderous and magical. They should be a fairly common thing and you really should only have issues if you are looking for things out of heroic tier or you move to a backwater area.

Ritual casting is magic use. I used "magic user" precisely to distinguish it from "wizard" and to ensure that it covered both PC's and NPC's. Only 1 out of 4 PC classes have ritual casting - only PC's and specific plot-important NPC's are built with classes. Everyone else officially does magic by DM handwave and doesn't need to use the same rules.

As far as "Figure out how easily you want your players to be able to get magic items, and set the DC based on that". Yes, that;s fine for the FIRST time. I need a DC check every time I go to get lunch? Once I know where something is, why do I need to keep checking to find it? If I need to, I'll buy a map and mark it.

In my world magic items are a lot more special than lunch. You don't need to roll Athletics to walk up a hill; you need to roll it to climb a sheer wall. You don't need to roll Streetwise to find lunch; you need to roll it to find magic items.

Every time you say, "I'll just go back to the same place I got it last time," I say, "Magic items do not work like that - you can't depend on the same person having the same things for you twice, even if they're found in the same place twice." Clearly you find it cool to think of magic items being available easily and reliably, and I find it cool to have them be mysterious and unreliable. Time to agree to disagree again.

 

[weldon]

As near as I can tell, the argument against making it easy to get magic items is that it's not realistic. If we put aside realism, I'm not sure how ready access to magic items makes the game less fun for anyone.

PC's are going to be careful about buying magic items in general and the 20% sellback rule prevents people from just swapping items around for the current adventure. I think the default answer should be that (when in Daunton) the PC's can go visit a temple or Swillwort and get their item enchanted per the rules in the DMG.

The DM should retain full discretion to limit what the PC's can do mid-adventure. If a certain magic item would break the next encounter, then the DM should be able to say that the temple is closed, Swillwort is on vacation, etc.

If the item is not going to break the carefully planned encounter, then what is the rationale to limit what items the PC's can buy? Does the game become less fun if PC's are able to buy the items that they want?

 

[JoeNotCharles]

Not "less realistic", "more atmospheric".