OotS 406

[Pbartender]

So paladins committing cold-blooded murder is okay with you, so long as they think the victim is/was up to something bad?

Absolutely.

Otherwise you wouldn't have so many Paladins wandering around slaughtering hundreds upon hundreds of goblins, orcs, drow and such without so much as a by-your-leave. And if Paladins couldn't go crusading against evil like that without consequenses, what's the point of playing one?






EDIT: By the way, did anyone else catch Rich's Babylon 5 reference? Emperor Mollari: “Everything I have ever done, I did for my people.”

 

[Nifft]

Otherwise you wouldn't have so many Paladins wandering around slaughtering hundreds upon hundreds of goblins, orcs, drow and such without so much as a by-your-leave. And if Paladins couldn't go crusading against evil like that without consequenses, what's the point of playing one?

IMHO, this is exactly why Tolkien-esque "evil" races are useful. So you have a "color-coded" moral value for killin' them.

Same for dragons, of course.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Andor]

Excellent!

"Like a bitter leaf,
the Paladin's soul may Fall.
But it's Spring in Oz."

-- N

I like that.

A paladin is
a trial. But if he could not
fall... Who would play one?

-Andor

P.S. Is line wrapping legitimate in haiku?

 

[rowport]

What if he's secretly her father?

Luke-

I wondered if I was the only one expecting this!

 

[Nifft]

I like that.

A paladin is
a trial. But if he could not
fall... Who would play one?

-Andor

P.S. Is line wrapping legitimate in haiku?

Yes, totally legit. You can't split a word, but you can freely split lines (or one big line).

"This one time? At Bard
camp? I met a Paladin.
She so fell for me."

-- N

 

[Kahuna Burger]

When did Xykon ever say, or even imply, that OotS was working for him? All he said revealed is that they had not destroyed him and that he had encountered "Bluepommel and his buddies". Moreover, he revealed his not having been destroyed not by anything he said, but merely by presenting himself in undestroyed state. The rest was Miko's Abundant Stepping to conclusions. OotS had spoken untruly; therefore, they had willingly lied; therefore, their purpose was deceitful; therefore, they were in league with Xykon.

Right, her only information was that 1) Xykon was currently in existance, and 2) he misidentified the Order after prompting that they had been in his dungeon and commented that they had made a mess.

1) With monk and paladin levels, she doesn't have the minimal ranks in Know (religion) to realize that you can physically destroy a lich and have it later return? Not just at the moment she saw him, but on a nice long ride home with time to think? He's a fricking lich with a high level evil cleric right beside him!

2) They said that they were in the dungeon, and leaving a mess is entirely compatible with what they said they did.

Miko grabbed any information she could find or invent to shoehorn into a preconcived opinion of the Order. There was no pushing, no manipulation, nothing that would have lead to any sort of crisis for someone who wasn't filled with irrational hate already.

 

[Dragonblade]

I have been on the boards for a long time and those who see my occasional posts know that I pretty much fall into the fire-and-brimstone paladin school of thought.

I fully support the zealous crusader paladin who is well within their right to use sneak attacks, ambushes, and pretty much ruthlessly bring down fire and death upon evil doers. I also believe that paladins can be judge, jury, and executioner.

HOWEVER, if I was DMing, Miko just lost her paladinhood.

And she lost it because, although I consider it appropriate for paladins to act as judge, jury, and executioner, they have a responsibility to do so while keeping the big picture in mind. They also have a responsibility to act rationally and to make a good faith effort to understand all the relevant facts. Although Shojo may seem to be duplicitous, there is also evidence that he was still good and she failed to investigate further. She acted irrationally out of rage, anger, and hatred with no thought but the satisfaction of her own self-righteousness.

Being a paladin isn't about always following the letter of the code (that's just lawful stupid), but you MUST always follow the intent of the code.

 

[paradox42]

Dang paladin threads.

Killing a non-evil person is NOT evil to the paladin, if said person is directly in line of causing evil or allowing evil to happen as a result of his or her action or non-actions.

If a paladin happens to serve a Lawful Neutral Lord (hoping to sway him to Good) and learns that said Lords employs assassins, for example, the paladin must:
a) Leave the Lord's service, as said Lord willingly and knowingly associates with Evil people;

Incorrect. The Paladin's Code (as previously copied to the thread courtesy of Pbartender, back on page 2 or so) forbids associating with Evil people.

It does not forbid associating with "people who associate with Evil."

People who associate with Evil characters are not themselves made Evil as a result of said association. Roy is the clearest example of that I could offer here.

Thus, a Paladin could remain in the employ of a Lawful Neutral lord even if said lord hired assassins, and not break the Code- although if said Paladin were ever ordered to go on a mission with such an assassin, he or she would obviously have to refuse (and depending on circumstances, kill the assassin as well).

 

[Aaron L]

And ... we ahve any reason to believe Shojo? The man is as much of a manipulator of the truth as Nale is a manipulator of people. In fact, I think Shojo is a better manipulator than Nale! You've got to be good to fool 100% of the paladins 100% of the time.

I still stand by my prediction that Shojo is evil. He'se definately not Lawful. I'd put him at a solid NE.

I think that's really, really, really far-fetched.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Edit: Additionally, the beings who pre-judged the trial (Shojo and Roy's Dad) aren't the beings who have the right to judge the trial. If they'd really wanted to be sure, they should have called in those Celestial beings of Law to ask their opinion. Of course they didn't, because they couldn't be sure that said beings would give the convenient result.

Again, a point in favor of Shojo not really being legitimate authority.

Heck, Miko even punished him in the name of the Sapphire Guard and the ancestor that founded it, which, I don't think anyone can debate, Shojo is very very guilty of pissing all over.

IMC, corrupting a lawful and good process just for your own expedience doesn't fall into Good territory. I don't buy "everything I did was for my people" as any more honest than "Of course this is a celestial being! And this trial is totally legit! And also, I'm senile!" The man has a reputation of lying to achieve his own ends. His end may be to keep the Snarl imprisoned, or it may be to control the final closed gate so he could extort the entire world to keep the great evil at bay (the Order didn't succeed at their last mission, why would he think they would succeed at this one?)

Again, the man's a serial liar, who fibs at the drop of a hat for his own convenience. His words being untrustworthy, we're left to evaluate his actions -- which could certainly serve evil ends just as easily as they serve good ones.

I say, even if he is Good, Miko doesn't fall for this one action. It's dangerous, but alignment has three components: motive, action, and reaction. The motive was Lawful Good (to restore justice to the throne), the action was debatably Lawful Good (applying standards of justice to one who had abused their power), and the reaction could be Lawful Good as well (Instituting a new, legitimate ruler in the throne, making sure Shojo can't hurt anyone else, etc.).