OotS 406

[prosfilaes]

Miko thinks she executed a traitor. Death is the legitimate punishment for traitors all over the multiverse.

But there's a reason at least one set of constitutional law that calls for two witness to an overt act or an open confession along with such niceties as a jury trial. Due process is part of law, too, and paladins are obliged to follow it as part of lawful good, when in civilized lands.

 

[Pbartender]

Incorrect. The Paladin's Code (as previously copied to the thread courtesy of Pbartender, back on page 2 or so) forbids associating with Evil people.

It does not forbid associating with "people who associate with Evil."

No, but it does forbid associating "with someone who consistently offends her moral code."

Arguably, Shojo and every member of the Order of Stick (with the possible exception of Durkon) could fit that description, depending on how cranky the DM was that day.

 

[Gez]

I say, even if he is Good, Miko doesn't fall for this one action. It's dangerous, but alignment has three components: motive, action, and reaction. The motive was Lawful Good (to restore justice to the throne), the action was debatably Lawful Good (applying standards of justice to one who had abused their power), and the reaction could be Lawful Good as well (Instituting a new, legitimate ruler in the throne, making sure Shojo can't hurt anyone else, etc.).

I am very tempted to godwin this thread now, because when you look only on the part that's convenient for your argument and forget everything else, you can say that Hitler was lawful good in motive, action, and reaction. You just have to focus on building highways, making trains run on time, breathing new life in the economy, and so on; and completely forget the world war and the genocide.

Just like you're doing with Miko who's busy killing the leader of a country in the eve of an onslaught by an army of undead and hobgoblins led by a lich and an evil cleric.

By disorganizing the country just before the start of the war, she is guilty of high treason.

Another paladin could execute her for she is an ally of Xykon: she was captured, but Xykon released her after talking to her of letting her join her side, and ever since she has worked contrarily to the interests of Azure City.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I think that's really, really, really far-fetched.

Assuming that you are talking about my prediction of Shojo being evil ...

I never said it wasn't far fetched. But, I honestly think that it wouldn't be the most shocking thing the Rich has done with OotS. In fact, I'd put it somewhere solidly in the middle.

If you were talking about Shojo being more of a manipulator than Nale, I don't think it is far fetched at all. Shojo has confused an entire city and the entire paladin guard regarding his motivations for what, 47 years? That's not only good, it's legendary. He should be the idol of all bards, to be honest. [And Belkar confesses so much in the strip]

What has Nale done? He's confused a city guard for a scant few minutes. Still certainly good, but no where near Shojo's manipulation ability.

 

[Grog]

So long as they KNOW the victim is/was up to something bad.

The problem with this is that it's almost impossible to KNOW something with absolute certainty. You have a witness that says someone was up to something bad? Witnesses can lie (and not all paladins have access to Discern Lies). You have documents saying the same thing? Documents can be forged. Hell, even a confession might not be trustworthy, since it could have been magically compelled.

Taking the example of this OotS strip, Miko didn't KNOW anything - she made a lot of assumptions and acted on them. And simply making assumptions does not give a paladin license to murder.

Paladins are the ultimate vigilante. They will tromp all over the laws of Lawful societies if they differ from or oppose their own moral compass, provided it is in the realm of their Deity's will.

Well, all I can say is that you run paladins very differently from how they're written in the PHB. It sounds to me like your paladins aren't even Lawful.

 

[Grog]

Otherwise you wouldn't have so many Paladins wandering around slaughtering hundreds upon hundreds of goblins, orcs, drow and such without so much as a by-your-leave. And if Paladins couldn't go crusading against evil like that without consequenses, what's the point of playing one?

Killing goblins, orcs, and drow isn't murder. Those races attack humans/demi-humans all the time - they're a threat to the civilizations the paladin is sworn to protect.

 

[Grog]

I say, even if he is Good, Miko doesn't fall for this one action. It's dangerous, but alignment has three components: motive, action, and reaction. The motive was Lawful Good (to restore justice to the throne), the action was debatably Lawful Good (applying standards of justice to one who had abused their power), and the reaction could be Lawful Good as well (Instituting a new, legitimate ruler in the throne, making sure Shojo can't hurt anyone else, etc.).

The action most certainly was not Lawful Good. The cold-blooded murder of a defenseless old man is an Evil act, and ignoring the legitimate authority in the situation (Hinjo) is a Chaotic act. And the reaction (destabilizing the country with an undead invasion imminent) is both Chaotic and Evil as well.

Let me ask this question again - if brutally murdering a defenseless old man in cold blood isn't enough to make a paladin fall, what is?

 

[Gez]

Let me ask this question again - if brutally murdering a defenseless old man in cold blood isn't enough to make a paladin fall, what is?

Especially when it was already established BY THE STRIP ITSELF that killing Belkar at the conclusion of the chase would have made her fall.

You'd have an easier justification for her killing Belkar than her killing Shojo, so...

 

[blargney the second]

"This one time? At Bard
camp? I met a Paladin.
She so fell for me."

*laugh*

The paladin code
causes the fall of many
internet posters.

 

[Gez]

Haiku are strange things
Many people post them, but
They're not haiku.