OotS 406

[Grog]

So, it's okay to kill without provocation a goblinoid that's minding it's own business and doing nothing wrong just because he's a goblinoid, but it's evil to kill a human, elf or dwarf whom you are convinced is committing high treason that would jeopardize an entire city just because he's not?

Are you saying that race determines what is and isn't murder?

That's a slippery slope, there, pal. :\

I'm not your pal, pal. And that's not what I'm saying at all.

Under the Monster Manual entry for goblins, this is what it says:

Goblins survive by raiding and stealing (preferably from those who cannot defend themselves easily), sneaking into lairs, villages, and even towns by night to take what they can. They are not above waylaying travelers on the road and stripping them of all possessions, up to and including the clothes on their backs. Goblins sometimes capture slaves to perform hard labor in the tribe's lair or camp.

According to the Monster Manual, goblins don't just "mind their own business and do nothing wrong." They steal, take slaves, and even kill people. Thus, it's justifiable for a paladin to kill a group of goblins who are stealing/slaving/killing in order to defend the humans and/or demi-humans he's charged with protecting. It is not justifiable for a paladin to murder someone just because he or she thinks that person is committing treason. That's not how a paladin acts, it's how a vigilante acts. Paladins are not vigilantes.

It's not about race.

 

[blargney the second]

To slay, or not to
slay? That is the question. Iff
it glows red, then yes.

Did you know that 'if'
has four less syllables than
'iff'?

 

[orsal]

So, it's okay to kill without provocation a goblinoid that's minding it's own business and doing nothing wrong just because he's a goblinoid, but it's evil to kill a human, elf or dwarf whom you are convinced is committing high treason that would jeopardize an entire city just because he's not?

Are you saying that race determines what is and isn't murder?

That's a slippery slope, there, pal.

Species, mister. As I believe is true for RL laws as well.

OK, so replace "goblinoid" with "orc". The RAW establishes that they are of the same species as humans (see under "half-orc").

 

[Gez]

OK, so replace "goblinoid" with "orc". The RAW establishes that they are of the same species as humans (see under "half-orc").

Dragons too (see under "half-dragon").

And since dragons are the same species as everything else, there's only one species in D&D.

Or maybe we could not put pointless semantics in the debate? As far as I know, Paladins don't go randomly attacking peaceful goblin towns. They explore some dungeon to quest for a lost relic or to slay an evil lich, get ambushed by a bunch of goblins, and then with the help of their teammate eliminate the goblin threat that's in their way.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

[Keanu Reeves]Whoa.[/Keanu Reeves]

Didn't expect that to happen (well, at least not that soon...). And, as everyone else has said, is it Monday yet?

As for Miko, IMHO...

She fell. Hard. I think she was a good example of a LG character focusing more on the Lawful aspect of the AL (thinking that the Good will come through strict adherence to Lawful). I think she'll stay Lawful. However, I see her becoming a LE Blackguard like there's no tomorrow.

Hinjo disagreed with his uncle's actions, but he was willing to still use the system to do what was necessary. Miko abused & used the system (or her view of the system) to do what she did. I won't say she's CE (yet), since she's still acting by the system.

And, as Shojo said, the paladins followed a code which (from how I read it) tied their hands behind their backs. Frankly, if it WASN'T for the OotS's actions in the first story arc, the paladins wouldn't have been able to do much of anything about Xykon until it was too late. I'm not too sure if Shojo himself was supposed to be LG (I'm guessing more NG, or maybe LN), but his concern was the city & its people (and the gates), rather than the narrow view of Soon's original code.

In a way, she pulled an Anakin--went down a very dark road believing it was the right way to do right, and beign to arrogant to realize how wrong those beliefs were until it's too late.

I also have to wonder if this arc may see Durkon "going home" per the prophecy. Maybe not, though. Then again, why is it that it's the dwarf PC who winds up buying it (like Flint from Dragonlance, or Ghim from Lodoss War, or even the dwarf barbarian who traveled with Soon and Dorukan)?

 

[Nifft]

Did you know that 'if'
has four less syllables than
'iff'?

Yes, but officer,
it has not expired, my
poetic license.

-- N

 

[blargney the second]

Nice! (btw, I mostly just wanted to end a haiku with a three-letter five-syllable word.)

 

[Nifft]

I'm not too sure if Shojo himself was supposed to be LG (I'm guessing more NG, or maybe LN), but his concern was the city & its people (and the gates), rather than the narrow view of Soon's original code.

I get the feeling he's Chaotic in his Goodness.

In a way, she pulled an Anakin--went down a very dark road believing it was the right way to do right, and beign to arrogant to realize how wrong those beliefs were until it's too late.

I think she's just really angry, and is letting her anger get the best of her judgment.
After all, she prays to be allowed to kill people who are (mostly) good and not evil at all.
That's one angry, bitter young lady.

I also have to wonder if this arc may see Durkon "going home" per the prophecy. Maybe not, though. Then again, why is it that it's the dwarf PC who winds up buying it (like Flint from Dragonlance, or Ghim from Lodoss War, or even the dwarf barbarian who traveled with Soon and Dorukan)?

I bet there are several who buy it -- but not Elan or Haley. If either of them died, Elan wouldn't get a happy ending. (Or Banjo. And Thog probably lives, too.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[BlueBlackRed]

I can't help but think there's some level of irony hiding in here somewhere because of something a cartoon did.

I almost expect to see an oversized OotS cartoon about whether or not she technically broke the paladin code; mirroring these arguments.
Either that or there will be a sideways comment like "What did you think? That we were going to argue pointlessly back and forth over whether or not Miko broke her code?"

 

[Nightfall]

BBR,

Bah, if there is a balloon about this I'll be extremely disappointed in Rich.