OotS 406

[I'm A Banana]

I am very tempted to godwin this thread now, because when you look only on the part that's convenient for your argument and forget everything else, you can say that Hitler was lawful good in motive, action, and reaction. You just have to focus on building highways, making trains run on time, breathing new life in the economy, and so on; and completely forget the world war and the genocide.

I dunno, Miko hasn't committed genocide or anything....y'know...yet....

Just like you're doing with Miko who's busy killing the leader of a country in the eve of an onslaught by an army of undead and hobgoblins led by a lich and an evil cleric.

By disorganizing the country just before the start of the war, she is guilty of high treason.

That really depends on her actions from this point on. Killing a leader doesn't nessecarily disorganize a country: Lincoln was assassinated, but America stood intact and the South hasn't risen again. Disorganization does not nessecarily follow from the execution of an authority. In fact, it could be argued that with the corruption at the heart of the nation gone, the unified front the Paladins will present (without subversion from within by criminal elements) will be stronger and more able to repel invading forces.

For instance, think of the recent coup in Thailand, where the government was overthrown by a military force that was more popular than the reigning PM (IIRC...I might not). Order ruled the day, not chaos.

It also depends on how authority is handed down in the world of OotS. She sees herself as an element of divine justice restoring a tradition that has been discarded. There's no real reason to believe she's wrong in that belief. If there is a lawful chain of command and authority to follow, she has not plunged her nation into chaos, she has just done her legally appointed duty: to destroy those in the system who corrupt the system for their own ends.

Gloom and doom hasn't been shown yet, and is hardly guaranteed.

Another paladin could execute her for she is an ally of Xykon: she was captured, but Xykon released her after talking to her of letting her join her side, and ever since she has worked contrarily to the interests of Azure City.

Well, it hasn't been shown she's working against the interests of Azure City. It's entirely possible that she's working for the interests of Azure City. It's possible that they *both* are working for the interests of Azure City, just in fundamentally different ways.

That said, I don't think it would be against the code to execute her, either. Paladins can war and both keep their LG standing and code. It's definately possible for LG to fight LG in bloody sacred warfare, debating over the best ways to serve the people, both unable to give an inch to the other side.

The action most certainly was not Lawful Good. The cold-blooded murder of a defenseless old man is an Evil act, and ignoring the legitimate authority in the situation (Hinjo) is a Chaotic act. And the reaction (destabilizing the country with an undead invasion imminent) is both Chaotic and Evil as well.

Is the legitimate authority the Gods or mortals? Is she beholden to Hinjo (some guy) or is she beholden to the Code, to her Alignment, to her Ancestors, to her Nation, and to her Gods (any or all of which could dictate that what she did was just)? Is the nation truly plunged into chaos, or is it made *stronger* by having a united front, rather than a corruption at its core?

Let me ask this question again - if brutally murdering a defenseless old man in cold blood isn't enough to make a paladin fall, what is?

Cold-blooded? Miko was issuing the punishment mandated, as far as we know, by every authority she respects. Shojo violated every aspect of honor and justice recognized by the nation and by the LG alignment.

Brutal? One cut. Seems almost a mercy killing, and the best way to ensure justice is done.

Defenseless old man? Shojo had proven himself capable at the very least of surrounding himself in powerful allies more than willing to bend to his beck and call (the OotS), if not a potent warrior in his own right.

If executing a traitor to justice and honor isn't part of the Paladin's duty, what is?

 

[Nyeshet]

The one thing I keep thinking is ...

This is how Anakin Skywalker should have fallen to the Dark Side.

I think this storyline really shows how someone can become and do evil while at the same time telling themselves they're doing good.

Actually, I was more reminded of that scene in Return of the Jedi, when the Emperor says something like: "Strike me down with all your anger and hatred and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete!" Then Luke strikes only to have it blocked by his father. Miko, however, did not have anyone to block her - and thus she has fallen, whereas Luke was saved from falling by his father. (Although it is highly debatable as to whether Anakin was attempting to save his son or defend his master when he blocked Luke's strike.)

 

[Elf Witch]

I'm not your pal, pal. And that's not what I'm saying at all.

Under the Monster Manual entry for goblins, this is what it says:



According to the Monster Manual, goblins don't just "mind their own business and do nothing wrong." They steal, take slaves, and even kill people. Thus, it's justifiable for a paladin to kill a group of goblins who are stealing/slaving/killing in order to defend the humans and/or demi-humans he's charged with protecting. It is not justifiable for a paladin to murder someone just because he or she thinks that person is committing treason. That's not how a paladin acts, it's how a vigilante acts. Paladins are not vigilantes.

It's not about race.

Just because they do the above does not make them evil, first of all if stealing is evil then no more rogues who grew up on the streets and joined the thieves guild can be good. Pleanty of human cultures have slavery so I guess then all humans should line up to be killed by paladins.

Adventuers go into forgotten temples , old dungeons and slaughter creatures and then plunder because that is what looting is plunder so I guess they should be next on the paladin's list of things to do.

I believe Miko fell hard for one major reason amd that is she let her anger take over. She was not alone in the wilderness, she had the chance to arrest Shojo and if she thought they could not trust the law of Azure City she could have brought him in from a tribunal made up of her fellow Sapphire Guard.

As for Shojo not dectecting evil there are items that can hide your alignment so that is not always viable and sure fire way. So saying that it is wrong for a paladin to slay someone who is not dectecting evil is wrong.

Miko heard with her own ears that Shojo had lied, broken the laws of his city, interfered with justice. She had just prayed to her gods asking for guidence and the next thing that happens is she hears Shojo confession. Just because he does not detect as evil does not make him less guilty of all the above and that makes him a traitor. A traitor whom she believes will not have a fair trial because she believes that the system is now corrupt. I do not believe she was totally wrong in delivering justice. I do believe however that she had alternatives open to her so that she did not need to deliver such a hasty sentence and that is why I feel she is in the wrong.

 

[GwydapLlew]

The Giant is wise;
Contentious stories always
Generate readers.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Miko heard with her own ears that Shojo had lied, broken the laws of his city, interfered with justice. She had just prayed to her gods asking for guidence and the next thing that happens is she hears Shojo confession. Just because he does not detect as evil does not make him less guilty of all the above and that makes him a traitor. A traitor whom she believes will not have a fair trial because she believes that the system is now corrupt. I do not believe she was totally wrong in delivering justice. I do believe however that she had alternatives open to her so that she did not need to deliver such a hasty sentence and that is why I feel she is in the wrong.

I can buy that.

IMC, though, it takes more than a rash action of anger for a paladin to loose their paladin status. Paladins aren't perfection -- they make mistakes, they don't see every consequence. She may have to atone (because not atoning indicates she's not sorry for letting anger get the better of her), but she's probably okay.

Still, that's one of those campaign-specific wafflings I can live with.

I can live with Miko falling fast and hard, too, but I do think it's important to be the devil's advocate...and to note that her turning blackguard and fighting the OotS would be kind of lame...

 

[Nifft]

I can live with Miko falling fast and hard, too, but I do think it's important to be the devil's advocate...and to note that her turning blackguard and fighting the OotS would be kind of lame...

Chill wind howls, and tolls
the harvest bell of Fall. Hope
she's not Atone-deaf.

C, -- N

 

[Elf Witch]

I can buy that.

IMC, though, it takes more than a rash action of anger for a paladin to loose their paladin status. Paladins aren't perfection -- they make mistakes, they don't see every consequence. She may have to atone (because not atoning indicates she's not sorry for letting anger get the better of her), but she's probably okay.

Still, that's one of those campaign-specific wafflings I can live with.

I can live with Miko falling fast and hard, too, but I do think it's important to be the devil's advocate...and to note that her turning blackguard and fighting the OotS would be kind of lame...

I have a problem with how easy a lot of people think a paaldin should lose their paladinhood. They put them in a straight jacket one small misstep and boom lost paladinhood.

I am DMing a paladin and playing one. I get so frustrated with the Dm and some of the players. There is a lot of argument in game by the other players, myself and the Dm about if I have slipped. There is such a difference of opinion on what is considered breaking your paladin vows.

In my game I have made a rule that other players are not to bring up alignment issues in game and say I think what the paladin did is evil why is he still a paladin. I and only I will say if the paladin has fallen.

I also am working on a code with the player. As far as I am cocerned as long as he follows his code there should not be a problem.

This paladin thread reminds me of a situation in another game we had a paladin who followed a god who opposed all undead. This god believed that it was an unatural state and an abomination the paladin took an oath to uphold the tenets of his faith and to rid the world of any abominations.

We came across a good lich. Because he did not detect as evil the paladin challenged him to honorable combat. The Lich was destroyed in the combat. It caused a lot of arguments about how the paladin had fallen because he had killed a good creature.

The Dm disagreed saying that it was not a good vs issue. It was a paladin upholding the tenets of his faith, his vow to a lawfully good god.

 

[Grog]

IMC, though, it takes more than a rash action of anger for a paladin to loose their paladin status. Paladins aren't perfection -- they make mistakes, they don't see every consequence. She may have to atone (because not atoning indicates she's not sorry for letting anger get the better of her), but she's probably okay.

We are not talking about a small mistake here. We are not talking about something like tithing only 5% of your gold to your church instead of 10%.

We are talking about a murder. In our society, we put people in prison for a long, long time for that. They don't get to say "I just made a mistake, please don't punish me." (Well, they can say it, but it doesn't usually do them any good).

Do you mind if I ask exactly what does make paladins lose their paladin status in your campaign?

I have a problem with how easy a lot of people think a paaldin should lose their paladinhood. They put them in a straight jacket one small misstep and boom lost paladinhood.

Murder isn't a small misstep.

 

[Nifft]

I have a problem with how easy a lot of people think a paaldin should lose their paladinhood. They put them in a straight jacket one small misstep and boom lost paladinhood.

Regicide. It's not on the misdemeanor list.

-- N

 

[Grog]

Is the legitimate authority the Gods or mortals? Is she beholden to Hinjo (some guy) or is she beholden to the Code, to her Alignment, to her Ancestors, to her Nation, and to her Gods (any or all of which could dictate that what she did was just)? Is the nation truly plunged into chaos, or is it made *stronger* by having a united front, rather than a corruption at its core?

So now we're back to the self-justification. According to you, paladins can do anything they want, no matter how Chaotic or Evil the act, so long as they can justify it to themselves.

Go back to the example in my earlier post:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3305924&postcount=160

I cut a defenseless boy down in the street because I think he helped some orcs attack a village. I have no hard evidence of this, I just believe he did something wrong, so I kill him. According to you, I'm still a paladin, right?