OotS 406

Nifft said:
Maybe. Then at least it's open to debate.

The fact is: she says she does not care if they detect as evil or not. Huge difference in attitude and intent there.




Her gods do give signs, though. They give her a big red "THIS GUY IS EVIL" sign at will.

They also gave her a giant "THIS ARMY IS EVIL" sign -- they showed her the real enemy. What did she do? Jump to a conclusion about an imaginary enemy in order to justify her prejudice and enable her to take revenge. That's some hefty dark side points.

Cheers, -- N

But in the game spells can hide alignment so that is not always an accurate method. You can have items that hide evil you have items that can change aligment so someone could read as evil but really be good. Its not a 100% effective tool.

Also just because someone is not evil does not mean that they have not violated the law. For example a person who sells out his country to another invading army may do it because he feels it is the right thing to do. or is under some kind of compulsion like a kidnapped spouse. That does not make him evil yet a paladin of his country would be in the right to execute him if under the that law paladins dispensed justice.

I am saying that given everything that happened from Miko's POV she has some wiggle room.
 

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Elf Witch said:
Let me ask you this what if Miko had heard all that she heard then detected evil on the group and they detected evil would it still be murder?

Yes. If Miko charged in and cut them down while they offered no resistance, that would still be murder.

However, if Miko attempted to take them into custody, and they fought against her, then she would be justified in killing them.
 

Elf Witch said:
But in the game spells can hide alignment so that is not always an accurate method. You can have items that hide evil you have items that can change aligment so someone could read as evil but really be good. Its not a 100% effective tool.

Let me repeat: she says she does not care. Big difference.

-- N
 

Nifft said:
Let me repeat: she says she does not care. Big difference.

-- N

I think she does not care because her trust has been totally violated by Shojo. I read it as her saying I don't care that they don't decect evil they are doing evil acts.

Take Belkar she can't detect evil on him but look at his actions he tried to kill a celestial being. Miko's horse is a being of pure good and the halfling wants to kill him. Roy even admitted to her that Belkar was not good but loyality was more important.

Shojo has said that he will do what he has to do to protect his city that the means justify the ends which is a very slippery slope.

She was tasked by Shojo to go arrest the order because they had broken rhe law and to bring them in for a trial. All of that was a sham she was used by Shojo.

I think Miko has had help on this fall from grace.
 

Elf Witch said:
I think she does not care because her trust has been totally violated by Shojo. I read it as her saying I don't care that they don't decect evil they are doing evil acts.

If they were doing enough evil acts, they would detect as evil.

Enough according to whom?

ACCORDING TO THE GODS.

Whose will is she serving?

NOT THE GODS.



Elf Witch said:
Shojo has said that he will do what he has to do to protect his city that the means justify the ends which is a very slippery slope.

Wait. It's okay to murder unarmed old men if they may be on a slippery slope?

That's ... beyond irony. :)

-- N
 

Grog said:
Yes. If Miko charged in and cut them down while they offered no resistance, that would still be murder.

However, if Miko attempted to take them into custody, and they fought against her, then she would be justified in killing them.

I disagree. There is an evil army at that gates. If these people were evil and involved then it would be dangerous and stupid to leave them around so th they could may escape from their cells and open the gates to allow the evil hoard in.

If there was no army at the gates then yeah I could see taking them in and throwing them in a cell and having a trial.
 

Having re-read the relevant strip, the only crime Hinjo and Miko overheard was that he faked the trial of the OotS. He also admitted to lying to his paladins by going behind their backs in secret to hire a group [the OotS] to go to one of the Gates and investigate it.

So, Miko had - from his own lips - an unknowing confession that he had staged a false trial. That was the only crime she had heard (as the other matters were matters of honor, not law: not seeking out or investigating other Gates, not lying to the Paladins of the Sapphire Guard).

From that she extrapolated everything else - that he was evil or willingly / knowingly associating with evil [the OotS, perhaps Xykon], that he had betrayed both the Sapphire Guard and Azure City, etc.

She presumed, because he had 1) been in power for 47 years, and 2) had managed to stage one false trial (to her certain knowledge, based on his own words), that the entire court system was corrupt(ed, by him) and that the laws of Azure City were corrupt (as he had had a hand in shaping them over the last half century).

All in all, she did a lot of assuming and jumping to conclusions based upon knowledge of only a single crime.

As for the timing of her prayer - she had been galloping to Azure City to warn it of the coming Army of Darkness. I somehow doubt she would have had time to stop along the way and pray for a few minutes to be shown those lying to her. Her duty would have compelled her to warn the city and the Shojo as soon as possible. Thus I tend to believe that the prayer was made sometime before she arrived at that beacon tower - maybe the day before? That would have still be rather recent (no more than 24 hours - or perhaps even that very morning).

In any case, she jumped to a lot of conclusions.

I still consider her fallen, but I don't think she will realize it any time soon. As she did not take time to Detect Evil or even use Smite Evil on the Shojo, I doubt she would use it in the middle of a battle with Roy, Belkar, and Hinjo. I think she will fight with Hinjo and the others, be forced to flee, and either hide in the city, be captured and placed in prison with the Linear Guild (for regicide), or escape the city and vanish from the strip for a few weeks - showing up later as either a Blackguard or something else entirely.

I just wonder what will happen next.


As an aside, presuming she does not atone, what other options are available to her? I can think of no other class offhand that would all her to trade out her Paladin levels than the Blackguard PrC. We know she is ~12th level, that she has 1-2 levels of Monk, 10-11 levels of Paladin. Should she go Blackguard, she will get the whole 10 level package almost immediately, I would think, transforming her to Monk 2 / Blackguard 10. But with the slew of new PrCs out these days, there must be a few I have not heard of that also allow a fallen Paladin to trade out her levels. What are they like? Could she perhaps come back as one of them as a surprise to us?


[Edit] Oh, and I second the opinion that the Cleric will be used to Raise the Shojo, especially as the point of going to that other gate was the knowledge that it was the next Gate Xykon would seek out (excluding Azure City Gate). With Xykon about to arrive at Azure city with a horde of Hobgoblins, it is rather evident that Azure City gate is the next target, not that other Gate. So, Shojo is dead, but in a few strips he will likely be raised.

The question remains - what will Hinjo do with the OotS? One of them is evil - or at least all but proven to have murdered a prison guard. The groups former trial - which allowed them out of prison - was a sham. Also, the group was there in Azure city specifically to be hired by the Shojo to take on a dishonorable mission - the seeking out and investigation of one of the Gates. All in all, I can see Hinjo not allowing them to leave the city - and perhaps even seeking to imprison them again (or at the very least Belkar). Unless, of course, Hinjo is KOed during the fight with Miko and the OotS take the opportunity to escape.

But if they do escape, what next for them? They no longer have a reason to seek out the other gate, but do they want to hang around in a besieged city? They cannot exactly reach Xykon through his horde of 10k+ hobgoblins, at least not immediately.

I wonder what will happen next? [/edit]
 
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Nyeshet said:
But with the slew of new PrCs out these days, there must be a few I have not heard of that also allow a fallen Paladin to trade out her levels. What are they like? Could she perhaps come back as one of them as a surprise to us?

There's always Dashing Swordsman... ;)

-- N
 

Nifft said:
If they were doing enough evil acts, they would detect as evil.

Enough according to whom?

ACCORDING TO THE GODS.

Whose will is she serving?

NOT THE GODS.





Wait. It's okay to murder unarmed old men if they may be on a slippery slope?

That's ... beyond irony. :)

-- N

I find this a fuuny argument being used in reverse. I have read so many paladin threads about how detect evil is not enough for a pladin to use to judge someone they have to have evidence. Because of spells that mask and change alignmnet. I have played with DMs who have had paladins fall from grace because they detected evil on a prisoner and he had been the victim of change aligment spell.

I did not say that just because he was on a slippery slope I said it was just one of many things Shojo has done that could make him evil in a paladin eyes. Even Hinjo thinks he may be evil from his actions. The difference is that Hinjo still believes in the law and that it can work Miko does not.

If a paladin knows that the law is corrupt and that turning over a law breaker means that there will be no justice delivered than I think the paladin has the right to deliver justice in that case.
 

Voadam said:
For the record I would not remove her paladin status. She honestly, though unreasonably, believes he is evil and I would not make take away powers over a paladin striking against what it thought was evil.

I would not her turn Evil or become a fallen paladin just yet.

I would indeed remove her paladin powers since she's apparently doing a mistake which will help the real evil guys to conquer the city. Removing her power will put her in front of the truth, that she made a wrong move and has to work to fix her mistakes.

If she then insists that she was right, even after losing her powers, that puts her in dire danger of really become a fallen paladin, because she would be basically saying that the gods (who removed her powers as a punishment) were wrong.
 

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