OotS 406

[Mouseferatu]

I just reread the comic and she says she prayed and then came to the throne door so it does not seem to me that she did that weeks ago.

Do you really think that, with an undead army less than a few days behind her, she stopped to pray before reporting?

Besides, she's referring to a specific incident we've already seen, way back in strip #298. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0298.html) We don't have to guess when this prayer she's talking about took place; we know.

 

[Nyeshet]

I did not say that just because he was on a slippery slope I said it was just one of many things Shojo has done that could make him evil in a paladin eyes. Even Hinjo thinks he may be evil from his actions. The difference is that Hinjo still believes in the law and that it can work Miko does not.

Actually, no, Hinjo does not believe Shojo to be evil. He believes / knows that Shojo has broken the laws of Azure City - by staging a false trial, and that Shojo has acted dishonorably - by hiring a party of adventurers to seek out and investigate another Gate. He never once stated that he believed Shojo to be evil.

If a paladin knows that the law is corrupt and that turning over a law breaker means that there will be no justice delivered than I think the paladin has the right to deliver justice in that case.

Possibly correct, but not a point in this case. Miko has only one example of a court case being falsified - only one. And yet she now presumes that all the courts and laws of Azure City are false and thus no longer legitimate and thus takes the law into her own hands. That is a very major assumption on her part, with no proof to back it up.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Her gods do give signs, though. They give her a big red "THIS GUY IS EVIL" sign at will.

I Detect Evil.
Something pings on my radar?
Paladinbot Smite!

-Hyp.

 

[PhoenixDarkDirk]

This paladin thread reminds me of a situation in another game we had a paladin who followed a god who opposed all undead. This god believed that it was an unatural state and an abomination the paladin took an oath to uphold the tenets of his faith and to rid the world of any abominations.

We came across a good lich. Because he did not detect as evil the paladin challenged him to honorable combat. The Lich was destroyed in the combat. It caused a lot of arguments about how the paladin had fallen because he had killed a good creature.

The Dm disagreed saying that it was not a good vs issue. It was a paladin upholding the tenets of his faith, his vow to a lawfully good god.

If it was up to me, calling for the destruction of all undead would make the god evil.

 

[2WS-Steve]

Do you really think that, with an undead army less than a few days behind her, she stopped to pray before reporting?

Besides, she's referring to a specific incident we've already seen, way back in strip #298. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0298.html) We don't have to guess when this prayer she's talking about took place; we know.

Man, good catch!

And it demonstrates one nice feature of the zealot -- they can always find some way to rationalize their prejudices, even if it takes 106 (edit: 108) strips.

 

[Herobizkit]

Incorrect. The Paladin's Code (as previously copied to the thread courtesy of Pbartender, back on page 2 or so) forbids associating with Evil people.

It does not forbid associating with "people who associate with Evil."

People who associate with Evil characters are not themselves made Evil as a result of said association. Roy is the clearest example of that I could offer here.

Thus, a Paladin could remain in the employ of a Lawful Neutral lord even if said lord hired assassins, and not break the Code- although if said Paladin were ever ordered to go on a mission with such an assassin, he or she would obviously have to refuse (and depending on circumstances, kill the assassin as well).

I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing out my flawed logic. I believe I was mixing "the samurai code" with "the paladin code" willy-nilly. :x

And to add in a bit more, thanks for mentionning that Paladins are allowed to kill capital-E Evil creatures without cause or provocation, but as soon as traditionally Good races who Evil come into the picture, it's suddenly taboo. It's a perfect example of how players confuse the Lawful Good alignment "guidelines" with modern-day "law and order" law.

 

[Herobizkit]

Killing goblins, orcs, and drow isn't murder. Those races attack humans/demi-humans all the time - they're a threat to the civilizations the paladin is sworn to protect.

Sure it is. Evil humans, elves and dwarves attack civilizations as well. Why do the laws of the land apply only to "people" and not "humanoids"?

 

[Herobizkit]

The problem with this is that it's almost impossible to KNOW something with absolute certainty. You have a witness that says someone was up to something bad? Witnesses can lie (and not all paladins have access to Discern Lies). You have documents saying the same thing? Documents can be forged. Hell, even a confession might not be trustworthy, since it could have been magically compelled.

Taking the example of this OotS strip, Miko didn't KNOW anything - she made a lot of assumptions and acted on them. And simply making assumptions does not give a paladin license to murder.

Didn't she overhear Shojo CONFESS what he had done?

Well, all I can say is that you run paladins very differently from how they're written in the PHB. It sounds to me like your paladins aren't even Lawful.

To be fair, I don't enforce alignment restrictions; I don't use alignment at all in the traditional D&D sense. Grey morality is always more interesting than a Deity taking your powers away for being questionable.

 

[Herobizkit]

According to the Monster Manual, goblins don't just "mind their own business and do nothing wrong." They steal, take slaves, and even kill people. Thus, it's justifiable for a paladin to kill a group of goblins who are stealing/slaving/killing in order to defend the humans and/or demi-humans he's charged with protecting. It is not justifiable for a paladin to murder someone just because he or she thinks that person is committing treason. That's not how a paladin acts, it's how a vigilante acts. Paladins are not vigilantes.

It's not about race.

Paladins don't read the Monster Manual. It is, essentially, about race. Goblinoids act in the manner described because the Good races traditionally don't let Goblins (et al) intermingle with their own humanocentric culture.

(The world of Iron Kingdoms does, however, just to illustrate one example that is non-traditional D&D for comparison.)

 

[Gez]

Didn't she overhear Shojo CONFESS what he had done?

Shojo never confessed to being in league with Xykon.