OotS 406

[Nifft]

I Detect Evil.
Something pings on my radar?
Paladinbot Smite!

Yes. Yes, she does.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Storm Raven]

The Order of the Stick actually were guilty of the crime of which they were accused, alveit only through Elan's incompetence.

However, the mitigating circumstances were what exonerated them. And those mitigating circumstances were relevant no matter who was judging the trial.

Edit: Additionally, the beings who pre-judged the trial (Shojo and Roy's Dad) aren't the beings who have the right to judge the trial. If they'd really wanted to be sure, they should have called in those Celestial beings of Law to ask their opinion. Of course they didn't, because they couldn't be sure that said beings would give the convenient result.

Why not? Are they incapable of evaluating the correct legal outcome of a proceeding? They used Roy's dad because he was on hand and they needed him to bring Roy on board to accomplish the actual goal of hauling the OotS to Sapphire City - investigating the other gates. If Shojo didn't want that, it seems pretty obvious that he wouldn't have bothered to send Miko to get OotS in the first place, and thus there would have been no trial at all.

The outside observer, though, will always be left with the question: what if something had come up during the trial that by rights should have changed the verdict? Would the outcome have been the same? Or would justice have been done?

Well, no. The actual conduct of the trial was handled entirely seperately of the issue of the celestial/not-celestial thing. There was a prosecution, and there was a defense. That was handled entirely seperate of the issue of who actually rendered the verdict. We have a pretty firm basis for believing that the evidence revealed was all there was.

There is no way the outside observer can ever tell. Therefore, there will now always be a doubt as to the effectiveness of the legal process. And that is damaging to the society (or at least the Sapphire Guard).

It won't be damaging at all to the society of Azure City. They probably could not care less. The Sapphire Guild might be damaged, but then again, I think killing the head of the order without a trial on the eve of an invasion by a force of unstoppable evil will be much worse.

In a Lawful society (or, order, in the case of the Sapphire Guard) it is vitally important not only that justice be done, but also that it be seen to be done. Where corruption like this is exposed, and even where the correct verdict results, the corruption must be thoroughly rooted out, or else the house of cards wobbles. Hence, Shojo needed to be removed (although, there again, Miko went about things in the wrong way - Shojo needed to be arrested, tried, and his actions publicly exposed. Once again, justice needs to be seen to be done to restore faith in the system).

Yes, justice must be seen to be done. Hence the show trial. The correct legal outcome was reached, but it needed to be shown to the Sapphire Guild that it was correct.

In any event, Miko has fallen so hard I am somewhat amused that there is even any debate on the issue. Jumping to conclusions, inventing paranoid conspiracy theories, not caring if the theories are true or not, not caring if the individuals involved are evil or not, and assassinating a defenseless old man rather than dealing with the unstoppable evil force is pretty much a one-way ticket to non-paladinhood.

 

[Elf Witch]

If it was up to me, calling for the destruction of all undead would make the god evil.

Why? It makes perfect sense to me. Being undead is not a natural state. One could argue that necromancers raising bodies and ghast killing people to make new undead spawn is evil.

The next time the undead come and munch on a villege the paladins should say sorry folkes we can't help, undead are just misunderstood.

Gods can be zealots in their views without being evil.

 

[delericho]

However, the mitigating circumstances were what exonerated them. And those mitigating circumstances were relevant no matter who was judging the trial.

Why not? Are they incapable of evaluating the correct legal outcome of a proceeding?

They don't have the right to render judgement - the legal system in place requires that summoned Celestial beings of Law do so. Whether their assessment of the judgement was correct or not is irrelevant; it was not their place to make that assessment in the first place. The situation is exactly analogous to a judge hand-picking the jury in a trial to ensure the result he wants... whether the right result comes about or not, the system is still corrupt.

They used Roy's dad because he was on hand and they needed him to bring Roy on board to accomplish the actual goal of hauling the OotS to Sapphire City - investigating the other gates. If Shojo didn't want that, it seems pretty obvious that he wouldn't have bothered to send Miko to get OotS in the first place, and thus there would have been no trial at all.

There should have been no trial in the first place. Rather that bothering with having Miko drag the OotS back in chains, going through with a show trial, corrupting the legal proceedings of the Sapphire Guard, indirectly causing the fall of Miko, and getting himself killed, Shojo could have used any number of other options. For example, he could have taken the extremely radical solution of... asking the Order of the Stick for help. ("Miko, I have a very important message here that you must deliver to one Roy Greenhilt. On your honour, this message must fall into no other hands, nor must it fail to be delivered by strip #250.")

Well, no. The actual conduct of the trial was handled entirely seperately of the issue of the celestial/not-celestial thing. There was a prosecution, and there was a defense. That was handled entirely seperate of the issue of who actually rendered the verdict. We have a pretty firm basis for believing that the evidence revealed was all there was.

We do. Miko does not. Hinjo does not. What's more, neither we nor any of the characters in the story will ever be able to answer the nagging question, "what if there had been more evidence?" Would the verdict have been reversed, or would Shojo's need of the services of the Order, and Roy's Dad's probable reluctance to sentence his son to death won out?

That question can never be fully resolved, because it's predicated on an unknown. But, as long as it remains open, it's a blight on the legal system that was used. And that's why you need an impartial jury (summoned Celestial) - it gives you the assurance that the whole thing is handled properly.

It won't be damaging at all to the society of Azure City. They probably could not care less.

One suspects, if it were to become widely known what had happened, a great many murderers and other criminals would press to have the ghosts of their dear departed fathers standing judgement in their trials. Probably not too many patricides, though.

Yes, justice must be seen to be done. Hence the show trial. The correct legal outcome was reached, but it needed to be shown to the Sapphire Guild that it was correct.

Justice has been seen very clearly to have not been done - the 'impartial jury' used in the trial was very obviously nothing of the sort. The trial has been revealed as a sham, the ruler of the nation has shown he is willing to ignore proper legal proceedings in the name of expedience, and it is time for him to suffer the consequences of his actions.

One other question Shojo shouldn't have been able to duck: if he was so convinced that he'd assessed the situation correctly, and had given the right verdict, why make a mock of the legal process? Why not just use an actual summoned Celestial, and proceed from there? That way, there's no half-witted cover up for Miko to discover, and no fallout from that revelation.

The Sapphire Guild might be damaged, but then again, I think killing the head of the order without a trial on the eve of an invasion by a force of unstoppable evil will be much worse.

In any event, Miko has fallen so hard I am somewhat amused that there is even any debate on the issue.

I'm not questioning whether Miko fell or not - my first post on this topic stated clearly that she had. However, there is plenty of blame to go around. And it remains my contention that Shojo should not have been left in his position of authority.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I can live with Miko falling fast and hard, too, but I do think it's important to be the devil's advocate...and to note that her turning blackguard and fighting the OotS would be kind of lame...

Well, she already fights the OotS on a regular basis. Maybe she'd ease up a bit and chill out if she were a blackguard.

 

[wingsandsword]

One other question Shojo shouldn't have been able to duck: if he was so convinced that he'd assessed the situation correctly, and had given the right verdict, why make a mock of the legal process? Why not just use an actual summoned Celestial, and proceed from there? That way, there's no half-witted cover up for Miko to discover, and no fallout from that revelation.

Because they really did summon a Celestial, and Roy's dad took the place of the summoned Celestial because he had been investigating the destruction of the dungeon himself and realized that Shojo was investigating it as well.

While Roy's dad wasn't the target celestial, he is a spirit from the upper planes who was able to respond to the summons. Depending on the wording of Azure City law, it could be a technically legal trial since they did summon a being from the upper planes to give the verdict. Shojo admitted he wasn't a lawful person, so he probably wasn't too worried about the technical wording of it, just that even if technically allowed the Sapphire Guard wouldn't like it one bit because they might see it as a violation of justice even if technically legal (kind of like what just happened). Shojo had to duck enough assassination attempts that he started to feign senility to seem harmless, the last thing he needed was to upset his Paladins and get them turned against him.

On another note, even if Miko was somehow justified by the Paladin's Code in killing Shojo, there is no way she was justified in killing him under her Samurai's Code. In addition to a fallen Paladin, she's also a dishonored Samurai. If she turns to challenge Roy & Belkar, or Hinjo, her first sign she's fallen should be when Windstrider doesn't answer her call in the first round (but she's so paranoid she'll probably attribute that or any other failings in her powers in that battle to trickery or interference by the OotS).

 

[Storm Raven]

They don't have the right to render judgement - the legal system in place requires that summoned Celestial beings of Law do so. Whether their assessment of the judgement was correct or not is irrelevant; it was not their place to make that assessment in the first place. The situation is exactly analogous to a judge hand-picking the jury in a trial to ensure the result he wants... whether the right result comes about or not, the system is still corrupt.

Are ou sure they don't have that right? Are you certain that the head of the Sapphire Order doesn't have the power to render judgments? Are you certain that Roy's father, who answered the summons for a celestial, is not capable of rendering such a judgment? Shojo didn't hand pick Roy's father, he showed up when the priests requested a celestial.

There should have been no trial in the first place. Rather that bothering with having Miko drag the OotS back in chains, going through with a show trial, corrupting the legal proceedings of the Sapphire Guard, indirectly causing the fall of Miko, and getting himself killed, Shojo could have used any number of other options. For example, he could have taken the extremely radical solution of... asking the Order of the Stick for help. ("Miko, I have a very important message here that you must deliver to one Roy Greenhilt. On your honour, this message must fall into no other hands, nor must it fail to be delivered by strip #250.")

Shojo could not have done that for two reasons. He feared (probably correctly) that Roy, without the background information provided at the trial about the snarl, and the prodding from his dead father, would simply ignore the message. Remember, the only way to provide the "state secret" about the snarl to Roy and company was to have them demand it at the trial. Furthermore, the paladins of the Sapphire Order are prevented by their oaths from seeking out the other gates, and preventing others from doing so, which means that Miko could not carry the message to Roy in the first place.

We do. Miko does not. Hinjo does not. What's more, neither we nor any of the characters in the story will ever be able to answer the nagging question, "what if there had been more evidence?" Would the verdict have been reversed, or would Shojo's need of the services of the Order, and Roy's Dad's probable reluctance to sentence his son to death won out?

But Shojo was not the only one presenting the prosecution. Hence, he didn't control the flow of information. If there was more evidence, it would have been brought forward at trial. That's why we have trials.

That question can never be fully resolved, because it's predicated on an unknown. But, as long as it remains open, it's a blight on the legal system that was used. And that's why you need an impartial jury (summoned Celestial) - it gives you the assurance that the whole thing is handled properly.

Actually, you need a called celestial, not a summoned one. And Roy's father seems to fit the bill.

One suspects, if it were to become widely known what had happened, a great many murderers and other criminals would press to have the ghosts of their dear departed fathers standing judgement in their trials. Probably not too many patricides, though.

Assuming that they can credibly be called celestial beings, there shouldn't be much of a problem with that.

Justice has been seen very clearly to have not been done - the 'impartial jury' used in the trial was very obviously nothing of the sort. The trial has been revealed as a sham, the ruler of the nation has shown he is willing to ignore proper legal proceedings in the name of expedience, and it is time for him to suffer the consequences of his actions.

It has, by everyone at this point except Miko and Hinjo. And even Hinjo seems to think that there is a need for a trial to determine Shojo's guilt, so he's not entirely on the "no justice" wagon. And in their position, they could have been shown (had Miko been willing to listen) that justice had actually been done, resolving the problem. Of course, Miko didn't care whether justice was actually done or not, her statements and actions clearly show that.

One other question Shojo shouldn't have been able to duck: if he was so convinced that he'd assessed the situation correctly, and had given the right verdict, why make a mock of the legal process? Why not just use an actual summoned Celestial, and proceed from there? That way, there's no half-witted cover up for Miko to discover, and no fallout from that revelation.

Because it was the only way to get the OotS to the Sapphire City, get them the secret information about the snarl and the other gates, and convince them to do what he needed them to do. Shojo explained all of this about a hundred fifty strips ago.

 

[Voadam]

If they were doing enough evil acts, they would detect as evil.

Enough according to whom?

ACCORDING TO THE GODS.

Whose will is she serving?

NOT THE GODS.



-- N

Not necessarily.

Mind Shielding
This ring is usually of fine workmanship and wrought from heavy gold. The wearer is continually immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment.

Faint aburation; CL 3rd; Forge Ring, nondetection; Price 8,000 gp.

As a PC I don't care if someone does not detect as evil in general when judging whether to act or not, there are numerous ways to screw around with alignment detection.

Another good one (if you can cast it somehow) for infiltrating a paladin organization:

Misdirection
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature or object, up to a 10-ft. cube in size
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: No

By means of this spell, you misdirect the information from divination spells that reveal auras (detect evil, detect magic, discern lies, and the like). On casting the spell, you choose another object within range. For the duration of the spell, the subject of misdirection is detected as if it were the other object. (Neither the subject nor the other object gets a saving throw against this effect.) Detection spells provide information based on the second object rather than on the actual target of the detection unless the caster of the detection succeeds on a Will save. For instance, you could make yourself detect as a tree if one were within range at casting: not evil, not lying, not magical, neutral in alignment, and so forth. This spell does not affect other types of divination magic (augury, detect thoughts, clairaudience/clairvoyance, and the like).

In particular, beware good goblins

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—blink, levitate, misdirection (DC 14), rage (DC 15); 1/day—charm monster (DC 16), crushing despair (DC 16), dimension door. Caster level equals the barghest’s HD.

 

[Voadam]

What actions would you consider taking their powers away?

Deliberate evil. Casting [Evil] spells (but this is for the [Evil] subtype tapping into supernatural Evil that pollutes the paladin Good powers and requires a clerical atonement purification to access the Good powers again, this is not a judgment on the morality of the action). Rape. Murder and torture that is not justifiable. If a PC says "this is evil but I'm going to do it anyway" I will go with their judgment and let them have their atonement/fall storyline.

I've had a 1e ranger in my game (before 2e) lose his good ranger powers and become a CN fighter from deliberate evil, sacriligeous acts.

Miko? In my game I would say continue to go forth and smite evil you crazy unreasonable fanatic. Gods help those who you find to be targets of your wrath, be they innocent and good or not.

 

[orsal]

[sblock]Belkar of course denies it. After all, he's not evil! Oh no.[/sblock]

How would you explain that, in light of the past 406 strips?
[sblock=elaboration]I thought Belkar's evilness was apparent beginning when he was unaffected by the Unholy Blight spell. More recently, we've seen time and again that he likes killing people just for the XP. I don't think there's any doubt about Belkar's alignment.[/sblock]