OotS 406

[Nifft]

In D&D world, the judgment of the gods is visible to Paladins. If the bastard glows red, he needs killin'. They can detect evil at will for a reason.

What is evil, though? It is what the Gods decide is evil. It is literally divine judgment.

- - - - -

Killing an unarmed man who poses no immediate threat is cold-blooded murder.

-- N

 

[Baron Opal]

IIRC, didn't Shojo in the strip before mention that the clerics that were going to raise the dead wizard would be stopping by the throne room "at any moment?"

Some good points have been raised as to whether or not Miko would lose her paladin-hood for these current actions. I would submit, however, that if she has fallen that she will resist Hinjo from arresting her. I can't imagine that Hinjo would just let Miko walk away after slaying his uncle and the ruler of Azure City.

 

[Wolv0rine]

I cut a defenseless boy down in the street because I think he helped some orcs attack a village. I have no hard evidence of this, I just believe he did something wrong, so I kill him. According to you, I'm still a paladin, right?

Eh, I'd say a closer analogy to what Miko did would be I cut a defenseless boy down inthe street after I heard him admit to helping some orcs attack the village so that they would take their loot and move on instead of sacking and burning it to the ground. My evidence is I heard him admit it, though not to me, and I refuse to hear the hows and whys of it. He puts up no defense or struggle, so I chop him in half in anger.

Either way; You, I, and Miko would fall by my PoV.

 

[Grog]

Eh, I'd say a closer analogy to what Miko did would be I cut a defenseless boy down inthe street after I heard him admit to helping some orcs attack the village so that they would take their loot and move on instead of sacking and burning it to the ground. My evidence is I heard him admit it, though not to me, and I refuse to hear the hows and whys of it. He puts up no defense or struggle, so I chop him in half in anger.

Either way; You, I, and Miko would fall by my PoV.

Well, if we want to keep it as close to OotS as we can, an even closer analogy would be that the boy didn't admit to helping the orcs at all, rather he made some other comments about "acting for the greater good" and I simply assumed that he'd been helping the orcs and then cut him in half.

It absolutely baffles me that anyone could think I'd still be a paladin after that.

 

[Sarellion]

I can buy that.

IMC, though, it takes more than a rash action of anger for a paladin to loose their paladin status. Paladins aren't perfection -- they make mistakes, they don't see every consequence. She may have to atone (because not atoning indicates she's not sorry for letting anger get the better of her), but she's probably okay.

You still get punished for rash actions of anger. Murder can be one of these rash actions of anger but that doesn´t mean you won´t be punished.

 

[Elf Witch]

We are not talking about a small mistake here. We are not talking about something like tithing only 5% of your gold to your church instead of 10%.

We are talking about a murder. In our society, we put people in prison for a long, long time for that. They don't get to say "I just made a mistake, please don't punish me." (Well, they can say it, but it doesn't usually do them any good).

Do you mind if I ask exactly what does make paladins lose their paladin status in your campaign?



Murder isn't a small misstep.

I was not talking about just this when I said so many people make a paladin fall because of a misstep.

Let me ask you this what if Miko had heard all that she heard then detected evil on the group and they detected evil would it still be murder?

Should she lose her paladinhood?

Miko asked for guidence from her gods and since the gods are real in her world what was she supposed to think when she heard what she heard? Now if this happened in a game I DMed I would have her lose her powers not because she killed a man who she believed was betraying her order, her city and her gods, but because she took the law in her own hands. She had alternatives. And this belief was based on evidence she heard with her own ears right after she prayed to her gods asking for a sign.

She also knows that an evil army is at the gates if she truly beoieves that Shojo has betrayed everything and is in allegience with Xylon them allowing him to live would be a mistake. Who knows what harm he could do. A city cannot afford to be divided at this moment. A live Shojo could cause much more disruption than a dead one. He could influence people to free him, or to follow and order without question that causes the guard to lose to Xylon.

playing a paaldin sometimes means making a judgement call. Knowing what Miko heard and the fact that she asked for guidence right before all this happened I would be willing to give her a little more leeway. Its not like out of the blue she just walked into the throne room and killed Shojo.

Actually if this ever happened in a game I would say the DM was being a major a&& who wanted the paladin to fall and set it up in such away as to happen.

 

[Mouseferatu]

...and the fact that she asked for guidence right before all this happened...

Nope. She asked for guidance weeks ago (in OotS time; months in real time). She's merely assuming that her request for guidance is applicable to this situation, because it's what she wants to believe.

She also knew she only heard part of the story, and didn't bother to find out the rest, instead simply assuming (note that word again) that it meant what she thought it did.

 

[Nifft]

Let me ask you this what if Miko had heard all that she heard then detected evil on the group and they detected evil would it still be murder?

Maybe. Then at least it's open to debate.

The fact is: she says she does not care if they detect as evil or not. Huge difference in attitude and intent there.

Miko asked for guidence from her gods and since the gods are real in her world what was she supposed to think when she heard what she heard? ... And this belief was based on evidence she heard with her own ears right after she prayed to her gods asking for a sign.

Her gods do give signs, though. They give her a big red "THIS GUY IS EVIL" sign at will.

They also gave her a giant "THIS ARMY IS EVIL" sign -- they showed her the real enemy. What did she do? Jump to a conclusion about an imaginary enemy in order to justify her prejudice and enable her to take revenge. That's some hefty dark side points.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Imp]

Ok, I'm gonna call it. I draw my own cartoons – I do that a whole ton more than the dungeons and dragonsing, actually, though I'm not claiming great mastery or anything – and I'm gonna guess what Burlew would do based on what I would do. Does this call for spoiler tags? I'll be safe:

[sblock]So Monday there's a big ol' fight, Miko vs. Hinjo and Roy and Belkar. Miko KOs Hinjo, fights off Roy and takes the opportunity to smite Belkar. Doesn't work. Miko staggers back, convinced she's fallen. Belkar of course denies it. After all, he's not evil! Oh no. They argue a bit, and Belkar dares her to try detecting evil on him. Doesn't work. Results inconclusive. Roy makes with the quippy. Conveniently, Hinjo is down so he can't provide corroborating evidence.

Then we switch to Xykon come Wednesday.

And this argument rages for a WEEK! [/sblock]

If only I could place a bet somehow... it feels cheap calling it like this and not having to pay for being wrong

 

[Elf Witch]

Nope. She asked for guidance weeks ago (in OotS time; months in real time). She's merely assuming that her request for guidance is applicable to this situation, because it's what she wants to believe.

She also knew she only heard part of the story, and didn't bother to find out the rest, instead simply assuming (note that word again) that it meant what she thought it did.

I just reread the comic and she says she prayed and then came to the throne door so it does not seem to me that she did that weeks ago.

She stood their and listened to Hinjo and Shojo talking and Shojo admitting that what they heard was correct that he lied to them and was practicing The ends justify the means.

What part of the story did she not overhear?