OotS 448

[Grog]

Again:

1.causing resentful displeasure; highly irritating, angering, or annoying

Which is clearly and obviously not the meaning of "offensively" meant in the spell description for Symbol spells. When the writers of the D&D rules talk about offensive spells, they're not talking about irritating spells. They're talking about attack spells. The word "offensive" has several definitions, but only one is relevant for the purpose of this discussion.

One of the most basic tenets of the English language, that we're taught in grade school, is that words often have multiple meanings, but not all the meanings apply in every context in which the word is used.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think the technical meaning of "offensive" here is that it is not possible to force your opponent to trigger the device. He has to take some kind of action under some definition of Action under the RAW (be it Free or Standard or whatever).

If you pull away the curtain, I can choose not to look at the wall (although I might be hosed anyway if somebody else chooses to look). If it is set as a trap in a box of treasure, again, I have to open the lid and I have to look at it (which is likely but not guaranteed).

Another RAW nitpick (as if such things were really important to OotS): The Symbol must be on a "in plain sight and a prominent location". IMHO, a mark on a bouncing ball meets neither requirement, and therefore the spells fails outright. "Plain sight" suggests there can not be any concealment such as we expect from a rotating ball. IMO "prominent location" in context implies on an architectual fixture like over a door, at an easy eye-viewing level on a wall, in the middle the floor of a corridor, etc.

(For the record, I thought bending the rules here was a worthwhile choice on the part of Rich. But I am pulling out all the ruleslawyerly points I can think of, for the heck of it.)

 

[Slife]

The paladins had decades to prepare for attacks, but not decades to prepare for this particular attack. If it were up to you, how would you protect the throne room from a high-level sorceror or wizard?

Install lots and lots of low level magic traps. (craft wondrous item is a feat your spellcasters should have anyway, and you don't need high level spells) Add in some holy water reservoirs in the ceiling. Hallow and consecrate the area. Make a deal with powerful celestials. Secretly put a decoy gate in the throne to disguise the real one, which is located in the middle of a block of lead in the floor. If it doesn't interfere with the gate, first cast AMF, put a bag of holding over it, then fill in the lead. Once the AMF is removed, the gem is located in the normal space part of the bag. Since the bag opens to an extradimensional space (which should be filled with holy water, caltrops, traps, and animated objects. Animated objects covered with explosive runes in common. Nobody should be here, so there's no point in pulling any punches.), trying to pull the gem out will prove fruitless. Put Glyphs of warding on each layer, set with the paladin's religion as the pass (this should be SOP everywhere). Cover the fake gem with exploding runes written in very small print in infernal. And abyssal. And undercommon. Written by seperate wizards. On second thought, put those everywhere you can. No cost except a couple of spells.

 

[Pielorinho]

If you pull away the curtain, I can choose not to look at the wall (although I might be hosed anyway if somebody else chooses to look). If it is set as a trap in a box of treasure, again, I have to open the lid and I have to look at it (which is likely but not guaranteed).

Sure--which is why Xykon told the paladins to follow the bouncing ball, and kept encouraging them to do so. They had to look at it.

Another RAW nitpick (as if such things were really important to OotS): The Symbol must be on a "in plain sight and a prominent location". IMHO, a mark on a bouncing ball meets neither requirement, and therefore the spells fails outright. "Plain sight" suggests there can not be any concealment such as we expect from a rotating ball. IMO "prominent location" in context implies on an architectual fixture like over a door, at an easy eye-viewing level on a wall, in the middle the floor of a corridor, etc.

(For the record, I thought bending the rules here was a worthwhile choice on the part of Rich. But I am pulling out all the ruleslawyerly points I can think of, for the heck of it.)

Fair enough on the "for the heck of it" thing. I think these points, along with the ones about how a roomful of paladins might all fail their spot checks, are going out of their way to rule in a manner hostile to the storyline. If you're doing that as devil's advocate stuff, that's cool.

Daniel

 

[Anthraxus]

Pretty disappointing for a two-parter. :\

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

My only objection to the symbol on a bouncy ball is that (a) I wouldn't allow a symbol to be inscribed that small - I've always envisaged them as at least hand-sized (consider the range at which they can be 'read'), and (b) I can't imagine anyone reading the symbol while it is bouncing around.

The spell can be set so that it is triggered merely by looking at it - reading isn't necessary (and is called out as another trigger option). I'd say it would be pretty impossible not to look at the ball bouncing around like that - although nearly impossible to read. But reading isn't necessary.

 

[Relique du Madde]

Technically speaking.. if Xykon held out the ball so that the mark is viewable before saying follow the bouncing ball and tossing it someone could have triggered before it was tossed. So its not really braking any rules since all he did was move the location of the rune so that it could effect an optimal amount of victems (by randomly tossing it forward as a swift/move action).

 

[Kahuna Burger]

If you pull away the curtain, I can choose not to look at the wall (although I might be hosed anyway if somebody else chooses to look). If it is set as a trap in a box of treasure, again, I have to open the lid and I have to look at it (which is likely but not guaranteed).

in the former case you also have to come into the room where the symbol has been cast and the curtain set up in the first place. I just can't see how bringing the symbol into a place you are attacking and actively introducing it to a group of people (as opposed to setting it up somewhere and the people come and interact with it or not) doesn't qualify as an offensive rather than defensive use of the spell.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Technically speaking.. if Xykon held out the ball so that the mark is viewable before saying follow the bouncing ball and tossing it someone could have triggered before it was tossed. So its not really braking any rules since all he did was move the location of the rune so that it could effect an optimal amount of victems (by randomly tossing it forward as a swift/move action).

note, throwing an object is not a swift/move action. If it were, alchemists fire would be a really popular item. And as has been discussed, bringing the symbol out and using it as a weapon is also against the rules, not merely the issue of being prominent and clearly visible. (If moving an activated rune to effect more victims isn't an offensive use of the spell, what would be?)

 

[Mycanid]

Sigh ... trouble, trouble and more trouble. :\