OotS 448

[Pielorinho]

note, throwing an object is not a swift/move action. If it were, alchemists fire would be a really popular item. And as has been discussed, bringing the symbol out and using it as a weapon is also against the rules, not merely the issue of being prominent and clearly visible. (If moving an activated rune to effect more victims isn't an offensive use of the spell, what would be?)

Hitting someone with the symbol in order to activate it. I choose to read the examples restrictively; others choose to read the restriction broadly. Rich clearly chooses the former approach.

Daniel

 

[Relique du Madde]

note, throwing an object is not a swift/move action. If it were, alchemists fire would be a really popular item. And as has been discussed, bringing the symbol out and using it as a weapon is also against the rules, not merely the issue of being prominent and clearly visible. (If moving an activated rune to effect more victims isn't an offensive use of the spell, what would be?)

It would be a move/free/swift action if you allow an abusive loop hole and say that he was "dropping/tossing" it into the next square without expending any effort (ie like flipping his wrist while loosely holding the ball). This is different from taking out a bottle pulling your arm back and thowing it. Since we do not see what occured before the first frame where Xykons arm is outstretched and the ball is in the air its hard to tell how much of an effort was used to "drop/toss aside" or "throw" the ball (for all we know it could have "flown" out of his hands as a result of being an activated magic item).

The question of the ball's offensive use is actually a very slippery slope because if the ball was triggered prior to it being tossed/dropped/thrown then there was a chance that it only moved into the crowd and stayed there by chance (it could have easily bounced outside through the window). Since the ball does not effect anyone who was not looking at it nor does it anyone who his struck by the ball, the only real thing that could really bar the spell from being used in the cheesy way it was if the fact that it was on a ball.

So if anything the rules were not broken (depending on if you allow the ball to be considerd a trap which allows it to be used in the manor that it was) BUT tif anything hey were sure in hell were abused.

 

[Vanuslux]

"Offensive" is a word with a specific meaning in the English language.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/offensive

The relevant definitions here are:

1 a : making attack : AGGRESSIVE b : of, relating to, or designed for attack <offensive weapons>

Xykon used the spell aggressively, as an attack. Therefore, he used it offensively, and thus, illegally.

Ohhhkay... let's see:
Dictionary.com says:
1. causing resentful displeasure; highly irritating, angering, or annoying: offensive television commercials.

=> Therefore using symbol of insanity is not possible, if the spell is used in a "highly irritating, angering, or annoying" way, right?

Since, for the victim, the spell is always "highly irritating, angering, or annoying", it means that the spell always fails, because it is an "offensive act", right?

English is everything, but well-defined and clear-cut. You need to interpret it, therefore I think DM fiat is completely okay.

Um, did you miss all the other definitions there, like this one?

5. characterized by attack; aggressive: offensive warfare.

My point stands.

I think the point the other poster was making was that there's no way to use Symbol of Insanity that doesn't match up to at least one of the definitions of "offensive", therefore since the spell is clearly meant to be used the writer must have intended a narrower meaning of the word "offensive" than the whole of the dictionary definition.

Inscribing a symbol on the inside of a chest you want to protect doesn't match up to any definition of "offensive" that I'm aware of. The spell isn't being used aggressively or as part of an attack, so that usage would be fine.

Again:

1.causing resentful displeasure; highly irritating, angering, or annoying

I'd say that I'd be pretty annoyed if I opened a chest and got hit with a symbol of insanity.

Clarification: I'm not saying that's an unreasonable use of symbol of insanity...I'm saying that throwing out dictionary definitions of "offensive" is pretty much useless as supporting evidence any position in this discussion.

Which is clearly and obviously not the meaning of "offensively" meant in the spell description for Symbol spells. When the writers of the D&D rules talk about offensive spells, they're not talking about irritating spells. They're talking about attack spells. The word "offensive" has several definitions, but only one is relevant for the purpose of this discussion.

One of the most basic tenets of the English language, that we're taught in grade school, is that words often have multiple meanings, but not all the meanings apply in every context in which the word is used.

Wow...that sounds an awful lot like a more condescending version of my original point. The last part anyway. The first part is just more asserting that you have more right to cherry-pick definitions than anyone else does. Unless you can specifically point to a reference where a D&D book specifically says " When the writers of the D&D rules talk about offensive spells, they're not talking about irritating spells. They're talking about attack spells."

 

[Henry]

I come down on the "This Episode was AWESOME!" side of the fence. The Symbol on the bouncy ball was really funny to me, and indicative of Xykon's loony yet effective schemes. It's plausible, even with a roomful of paladins with protective spells, it's definitely NEVER been done before (not even on the Simpsons), and it took me totally off-guard. I expected a "Xykon crushes them with spell power" moment, similar to what Klaus was saying, but instead got an off-the-wall treatment of Xykon kicking butt.

Gotta say I enjoyed it.

The Order of the Stick is in its "Empire Strikes Back" phase; they'll come out on top, eventually.

 

[Professor Phobos]

The Order of the Stick is in its "Empire Strikes Back" phase; they'll come out on top, eventually.

Indeed. I thought from the start of the Azure City Besieged arc they were going to lose this fight. Not only is it desirable to have Hinjo lose his army and join the Order, but the AC rift is the smallest of them. Easy enough to demand Xykon keep going after gates. Plus the Linear Guild is in prison; someone has to spring 'em. And Miko has to continue her fall...

Plus, they evacuated the AC civilians. Why make a point of saying "The Civilians were evacuated" if it isn't going to offset the loss of the city?

 

[questing gm]

The title of the strip was 'Just Crazy Enough to Work'....

 

[Vanuslux]

Indeed. I thought from the start of the Azure City Besieged arc they were going to lose this fight. Not only is it desirable to have Hinjo lose his army and join the Order, but the AC rift is the smallest of them. Easy enough to demand Xykon keep going after gates. Plus the Linear Guild is in prison; someone has to spring 'em. And Miko has to continue her fall...

Plus, they evacuated the AC civilians. Why make a point of saying "The Civilians were evacuated" if it isn't going to offset the loss of the city?

Yeah, I'm fairly sure that Azure City is going to lose...the ritual that Xykon needs to perform to achieve his goals with the rift takes weeks, so that's plenty of time for the OotS to regroup after a sound defeat and return to foil his plans.

 

[Matchstick]

I think that sums it up pretty well for me... Xykon was going to win regardless of the stats of the Paladins or how prepared they were. But the DM in me says that the last stand of the Saphhire Guard should have been just a bit more interesting... just a bit cooler on the Paladins' side of things for the sake of exposition. By and large the strip gave me the impression that the Guard as a whole were a bunch of boobies, which is rather counter to everything we've been told previously.

It'd be kind of like having all the Jedi Masters standing around like chumps while Stormtroopers ignominiously gunned them down... Oh, wait...

Or maybe more like having all the Jedi Masters standing around like chumps while Vader or Palpatine ignominiously cut them down... Oh, wait...

I agree.

I wonder why this whole scene was even thought worthy of a strip. Badassitude could have been much more easily and effectively indicated by having the battle take place off screen and the results discovered later, perhaps by one of our heroes.

That said, I'm betting Rich is going to pull himself out of the fire in one of those moves that really makes you question whether or not he reads forums (though he claims he doesn't). Right now, there's no one and nothing in that battle that can defeat Xykon. No one. Nothing. All that's left is Rule 0, and I'm betting Rich throws in something along the lines of the Holy Water traps or "gate in a different location" things mentioned above.

 

[Someone]

The Order of the Stick is in its "Empire Strikes Back" phase; they'll come out on top, eventually.

I don't know how. Xykon has been portrayed as vastly superior to them, vastly in the sense of "Brazillian national soccer team, but with bionic enhancements and armed with missile launchers VS school team of retarded 8 year old children" vastly superior. Xykon can only lose now by a catastrophic act of incompetence or a blatant Deus Ex Machina; in any case, I'm afraid Rich has written himself into a corner with this one.

 

[Drowbane]

I don't know how. Xykon has been portrayed as vastly superior to them, vastly in the sense of "Brazillian national soccer team, but with bionic enhancements and armed with missile launchers VS school team of retarded 8 year old children" vastly superior. Xykon can only lose now by a catastrophic act of incompetence or a blatant Deus Ex Machina; in any case, I'm afraid Rich has written himself into a corner with this one.

Eh, not with ya on that one.

Xykon has roughly 7+ levels on the OotS, making him an extreme challenge... but still possible. They've beaten the stuffing out of him before.

edit: Although to be fair to you... Xykon should've nuked the OotS out of existence the first time they fought