• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

OotS 449

hong

WotC's bitch
SPoD said:
The text you quoted does not say that all incorporeal creatures have no STR, it says that some creatures with no STR are incorporeal. Not even close to the same thing.

Ghosts don't have "No STR score". That quote would only apply to a monster that didn't have a STR score, which is not a ghost. Since they take the time in the Ghost template to say, "You now have no Constitution" then we know that ghosts don't lose their STR, and in fact make use of them when attacking with ghostly weapons.

Frank was possibly thinking of

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks.​

under "Incorporeal".

No, it's not, because ghostly weapons aren't touch attacks AT ALL. They are incorporeal attacks, but not touch attacks.

They are "incorporeal touch attacks". Notice the word "touch".
 

log in or register to remove this ad

SPoD

First Post
hong said:
Frank was possibly thinking of

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks.​

under "Incorporeal".

The 3.5 SRD does not match that text. This is the entire entry on Incorporeality:
Incorporeality
Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies. Such creatures are insubstantial and can’t be touched by nonmagical matter or energy. Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal beings have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack against a corporeal creature.

Incorporeal creatures are present on the same plane as the characters, and characters have some chance to affect them.

Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids.

Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.

Incorporeal creatures are immune to critical hits, extra damage from being favored enemies, and from sneak attacks. They move in any direction (including up or down) at will. They do not need to walk on the ground. They can pass through solid objects at will, although they cannot see when their eyes are within solid matter.

Incorporeal creatures hiding inside solid objects get a +2 circumstance bonus on Listen checks, because solid objects carry sound well. Pinpointing an opponent from inside a solid object uses the same rules as pinpointing invisible opponents (see Invisibility, below).

Incorporeal creatures are inaudible unless they decide to make noise.

The physical attacks of incorporeal creatures ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability.

Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air.

Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage.

Corporeal creatures cannot trip or grapple incorporeal creatures.

Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

Incorporeal creatures do not leave footprints, have no scent, and make no noise unless they manifest, and even then they only make noise intentionally.​

The word "Strength" does not even appear in it.

Further, the sample ghost in the Monster Manual has a Strength of 16.


hong said:
They are "incorporeal touch attacks". Notice the word "touch".

I don't "note" any such word. From the section on ghostly weapons:

When a ghost forms, all its equipment and carried items usually become ethereal along with it. In addition, the ghost retains 2d4 items that it particularly valued in life (provided they are not in another creature’s possession). The equipment works normally on the Ethereal Plane but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures when the ghost manifests, but any such attack has a 50% chance to fail unless the weapon is a ghost touch weapon (just as magic weapons can fail to harm the ghost).

The original material items remain behind, just as the ghost’s physical remains do. If another creature seizes the original, the ethereal copy fades away. This loss invariably angers the ghost, who stops at nothing to return the item to its original resting place.​

I don't see the phrase "incorporeal touch attack" in there.
 

hong

WotC's bitch

SPoD

First Post
hong said:

They revised a major special ability in an optional monster book? Geez. Well, I guess that explains my confusion, sorry about that. I don't even own MM3.

Although, I would say that OOTS doesn't necessarily "know" about that either. If there was ever an OOTS Campaign Setting d20 book with stats on ghost-martyrs, it couldn't use that rewrite, you know?

hong said:
Note that all incorporeal creatures, including ghosts, have an "incorporeal touch attack". The word "touch" appears.

I know ghosts HAVE an incorporeal touch attack, but is that the same thing as saying ALL attacks by a ghost are automatically incorporeal touch attacks? (At this point, I have no idea, I'm honestly asking. For all I know, it was explained perfectly in Complete Didn'tbuyit.)
 

Gez

First Post
Ah, incorporeality and Strength... The thing is that a creature with the incorporeal subtype may keep a Strength score if it's able to become corporeal, because then it uses it in these cases. Everytime it's not corporeal, however, it has no Str score.

The thing is, that factoid is detailed under the entry for the Incorporeal subtype, not in the entry for the incorporeality status. A subtype is not a status, a status is not a subtype.

As for incorporeal attacks -- how could they be not touch attacks? Armor, natural or not, is matter, incorporeal stuff just pass through. Exception: ghost touch armor. Note that deflection bonus to AC apply against touch attacks. By the way, incorporeal monsters have such a bonus equal to their Charisma.
 


SPoD

First Post
Gez said:
As for incorporeal attacks -- how could they be not touch attacks? Armor, natural or not, is matter, incorporeal stuff just pass through. Exception: ghost touch armor. Note that deflection bonus to AC apply against touch attacks. By the way, incorporeal monsters have such a bonus equal to their Charisma.

Theoretically? Because incorporeal attacks are stopped by Mage Armor, and touch attacks are not. Therefore, aren't incorporeal attacks a type of attack that is similar--but not identical to--touch attacks?

EDIT: And since Xykon is almost certainly benefiting from Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor, for this purpose the distinction seems to matter. If he has BoA +8, then they have to roll 8 higher to hit him if it's NOT a touch attack then if it is.
 
Last edited:



Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
Ghost-martyr of the Sapphire Guard, heh? Cool Prestige class.

And that's some of the stiffest requirements for entering a prestige class I've seen.

"Req: +5 BAB, Paladin Class, Must die defending Azure City". :D

/M
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top