Open Letter to WotC from Chris Dias

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Their first mistake with 4th Edition was making what was essentially a completely new fantasy roleplaying game, which meant that they were simultaneously (a) abandoning the advantages of the network of support they had built for themselves and (b) leaving a void at the top of that network's food chain that could be filled.
You describe this as a mistake. But what I find interesting is the possibility that WotC had already formed the view that they were under threat from something like Pathfinder so long as they continued to publish rules that (more-or-less) fitted onto the OGL-governed SRD.

One reason to suppose that they had this belief is that it would then make their decision to publish a game which was reasonably discontinuous from the d20 SRD, and which was not itself licensed under the OGL, a rational one from their perspective.
 

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Yeah, so what exactly do you disagree with? That, for Wotc, following the OGL and having something like Pathfinder happen is not a matter of concern?

Sure, some people like you may think so. Wotc seems to think differently. And I think you will have to try really hard to be convincing on how the ability of a company to support an edition you want to abandon does not hamper your ability to get as many of your fans as possible to follow you to your next edition.
I am done with your conversation. I told you that I was tired of your never ending, ever repeating argument. Do not try to drag me in. Welcome to the Ignore list.

The Auld Grump
 

You make a distinction here. The distinction is:

No offense, but it's clear at this point that English is not your first language and you're operating across a language barrier. And there comes a point at which trying to communicate across that language barrier is a lost cause. This is that point.

Logically, this distinction means that if they abandon the OGL they should not publish something new, aka go on with what they were having going on, which is nothing else but 3.5e.

For example, my original post explicitly contradicts your "logical" conclusion here. Which means that it isn't logical.

I have pointed this out to you before. Yet you persist in claiming that you can read my mind and that I actually meant something completely contrary to what I wrote.

There's not much more to discuss at that point.

Imagine if you could market your product as a game that has the best elements of 4e while retaining the more attractive ones of 3.5e and succeed in that.

You can do that right now. Since game mechanics can't be copyrighted, nothing's stopping you.

But you will very quickly discover that figuring what constitutes the "best elements of 4e" and the "more attractive ones of 3.5e" is essentially impossible because it represents a personal value judgment. And many of the things which people who play 4e consider "the best elements of 4e" are fundamentally incompatible with the "more attractive ones of 3.5e" that made people stick with that system.

You describe this as a mistake. But what I find interesting is the possibility that WotC had already formed the view that they were under threat from something like Pathfinder so long as they continued to publish rules that (more-or-less) fitted onto the OGL-governed SRD.

One reason to suppose that they had this belief is that it would then make their decision to publish a game which was reasonably discontinuous from the d20 SRD, and which was not itself licensed under the OGL, a rational one from their perspective.

In terms of the specific context of "try to prevent something like Pathfinder" I think WotC's decision to simultaneously drop AND publish a radically new fantasy RPG was pretty much the worst way to do it. WotC obviously believed otherwise, but that doesn't mean they weren't dead wrong.

A few points:

(1) Paizo was not the first publisher to repackage the core rules and publish them. At least two other publishers did that from 2000-2008 and there were probably others that I'm unaware of. And there were others who tried to publish various flavors of "D&D... but slightly improved!". None of them were successful. None of them significantly impacted WotC's market. None of them enjoyed the success which Pathfinder has enjoyed.

I feel fairly confident in saying that no such project would succeed in yanking away substantial portions of WotC's marketshare, as long as WotC remained at the top of the pyramid. It was only by vacating that position that WotC made Pathfinder possible.

(2) The transition from 3.0 to 3.5 makes it fairly apparent that even minor shifts in mechanics were widely perceived as rendering older material out of date. A hypothetical-4E that maintained 1974-2008 gameplay could still have changed enough to render 3.5 material into dustbin material.

(3) Could a hypothetical-4E that was closer to 3.5 have allowed people to use the OGL to "clone" the system? Maybe. But newsflash: People have been publishing off-brand D&D supplements since 1975. There are people publishing D&D clones right now that don't use the OGL.

So, to sum up:

If WotC had done real-4E and released it under an OGL, I don't think Pathfinder happens. I think Paizo and the rest of the major players in the industry (the people who could actually make something like Pathfinder happen) would simply move on to 4th Edition. WotC would probably still have lost 3.5 players like me, but the level of product support for people like us would be more on the level of the OSR retro-clones than Pathfinder.

If WotC had done a hypothetical-4E and NOT released it under the OGL, someone might have tried for something like Pathfinder. But I think WotC would have been far more successful at converting their player base, who (as with the transition from 3.0 to 3.5) would view the older material as being incompatible enough to not interest them.

Alternatively, I suspect that WotC could have released a hypothetical-4E (with 1974-2008 gameplay) and coupled it to a poison pill GSL that allowed them to pull the license at some future date. Between a more successful conversion of the player base and a likelihood of luring major players onboard, WotC might have given themselves a graceful exit plan from the OGL-era.

Ironically, buying patterns in the DDI era make it clear that WotC could have easily gotten away with hypothetical-4E and no third-party licensing at all. Semi-compatible clone support would wither on the vine even more painfully in the wake of people preferring DDI-supported options than the fully-compatible GSL material available today. But here I can say that nobody could have reliably predicted this effect of DDI.
 

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If WotC had done real-4E and released it under an OGL, I don't think Pathfinder happens. I think Paizo and the rest of the major players in the industry (the people who could actually make something like Pathfinder happen) would simply move on to 4th Edition. WotC would probably still have lost 3.5 players like me, but the level of product support for people like us would be more on the level of the OSR retro-clones than Pathfinder.

What major players? Other than Paizo and Goodman games, there were no major players doing 3.5 D&D supplements anymore. Green Ronin did a couple of modules, but their main focus was pretty obviously M&M. AEG was out. Mongoose had been out for while. S&S Press had given up years earlier.

What major players were left?
 

No offense, but it's clear at this point that English is not your first language and you're operating across a language barrier. And there comes a point at which trying to communicate across that language barrier is a lost cause. This is that point.



For example, my original post explicitly contradicts your "logical" conclusion here. Which means that it isn't logical.

I have pointed this out to you before. Yet you persist in claiming that you can read my mind and that I actually meant something completely contrary to what I wrote.

There's not much more to discuss at that point.
Blah blah blah. Nothing to see here. Nada.

Explain what you meant in plain english please and show how my conclusion is not logical.

It is to easy to blame a language barrier and then not try to explain in plain english where the misunderstanding lies.
 
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I am done with your conversation. I told you that I was tired of your never ending, ever repeating argument. Do not try to drag me in. Welcome to the Ignore list.

The Auld Grump

So you attack me instead of attacking the argument. If you cant face the argument it is stupid to provoke by posting a disagreement and when asked to put it on solid ground accuse people of being thick headed and that you should ignore them.
 
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You can do that right now. Since game mechanics can't be copyrighted, nothing's stopping you.
There is. Fear of getting sued. Even if mechanics cannot be copyrighted as you say.
Also, trying to be "copyright infringement" proof in such an endeavor could be a nightmare. And still, Wotc could still sue you.
In other words, what was the point of the OGL first place again?
 

What major players? Other than Paizo and Goodman games, there were no major players doing 3.5 D&D supplements anymore. Green Ronin did a couple of modules, but their main focus was pretty obviously M&M. AEG was out. Mongoose had been out for while. S&S Press had given up years earlier.

What major players were left?
Pretty much the case, coming to think of it. :erm:

Mongoose was releasing a new line of hard covers, the Renegade books, but I am pretty sure that it was under the OGL, not the D20 STL. And they were mostly repackagings, not new material. The Classic Play line was still going though, so I think that one counts. And there was still some movement in the Slayer's Guide, but most of the movement was satirical and under the OGL, not D20. And a few oddballs in the Quintessential line. So, Mongoose was still in when the D20 license ended, but had changed focus - it had become a sideline.

Privateer had some things in the works, but they were already years behind schedule, putting their focus on WARMACHINE. The D20 license going away pretty much just put the last few nails in the coffin's lid.

Adamant... maybe not a major player, but still coming out with material.

The Dragonlance material was still going fairly strong - and I think tossing aside that license was a bad move, feeding the ill will that was already building towards WotC, even before the announcement of 4e.

Paizo and Goodman still had their primary focus on the OGL/D20 STL when the change came.

I don't know about Goodman, since DCC was transferred over to the GSL, but I think that WotC made a misstep losing Paizo, turning what could have been a strong supporter into a serious rival. And a competitor who's reputation they had helped build by entrusting them with Dragon and Dungeon magazines - a trust that Paizo had shown worthy of, releasing some of the best Dungeon adventures ever written.

The Auld Grump
 

Here, I will try to make it plain and clear for you where the problem lies in what you are saying.
Basically, what you say is that Wotc should make a 3.5e highly compatible game without being OGL.
This, simply put, makes no sense.
Why? Simply because the OGL is a base of compatibility. Since 3.5e is OGL, you could use the OGL to make compatible products with that new hypothtical highly compatible game that would not be OGL. Thus your point is moot.
 

And in the end that all comes out in the wash.
But that doesn't change the fact that removing PF from reality won't cause people who don't like 4E to become fans.

I still believe that some people who were dissatisfied with 3.5, but did not like the changes 4E made to solve the issues they were having, but did like the changes Paizo made in Pathfinder, would have made the change to 4E as the choice of a lesser of two evils. I'm not going to claim any numbers here, just an opinion that this would have happened. Since I can't see into alternate realities I cannot prove my theory.
 

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