opinions of "Asterids parlor"

[Dannyalcatraz]

The point isn't that groups are excluded from places like Asterid's Parlor (as you pointed out, or not), the point is that putting the shoe on the other foot and say, creating a forum focused on white male issues, would cause tremendous outrage. The point isn't that men can't join a place like Curves, its that those kind of institutions for men have been forcibly closed down or converted.

And the reason is something called disparate impact.

Like it or not, organizations that cater to the majority only- excluding others- has a disperate impact upon society relative to similar organizations that cater exclusively to minorities. Such environments have demonstrated an unfortunate tendency to be fertile grounds for back-room deals that serve only to keep the majority in power.

It may not start that way, true, and such an outcome is not inevitable, but it happens often enough that courts and lawmakers get wary and err on the side of busting them open.

And as I noted in my post about the New Orleans Krewes, sometimes even the minority organizations get forced to open up their membership to those outside their typical constituency. Even the HBCUs are no longer "black only"- anyone can attend them, and indeed, its a little known fact that they're just as aggressive in wooing white students with grants & scholarships in order to promote diversity on their campuses as mainstream colleges and universities are about seeking minority students.

[tangent]Anyone who knows a white kid looking for a school to attend after graduating HS should check the HBCUs out- an inexpensive or even free college education could result. And what could be a better tool in teaching about minority politics & perspectives than being a minority for four years?[/tangent]

 

[ironvyper]

You're comparing the female experience to the male experience by assuming that men are the norm. Black, White, Asian, Purple, Catholic, Buddhist, Jewish, Queer, Straight... Women are women are women. And they will not be men and our issues will never be solved if you assume that women need to measure up to men because you think the male experience is the yardstick of life.

As soon as a woman starts talking about women's issues with, oh, say, gaming, and then a mob of men start throwing out words like "feminazi," "man-hater," and gods-forbid "dyke," then they continue to push that THEY, the men, are the primary model of gamerhood and anything else is wroooong. Clearly if a woman's p.o.v. deviates from this norm then she must be punished. What I see is threatened manhood. When they start dictating how women should perceive their experiences, gaming or otherwise, they are being oppressive.

There's nothing more annoying than the disenfranchised being told that they shouldn't feel disenfranchised.

-----------------------------
Oh, and...
*cheers Elf Witch*

I just spent 3 hours looking over that forum and i didnt see any of what your talking about. on the whole first page of threads there wasnt one feminazi comment, or the word dyke. So i think maybe your yelling fire in a theatre where no one can even smell smoke.

What i did see and point out to my fiance and neighbor whose also a female gamer where several threads about

1. Chainmail bikinis.

Both women said it thier characters wouldnt wear one but it didnt bother them either and looked at little puzzled at the page count....

2. 2 threads about drow.

I never knew this but apparently ever drow in creation somehow became a dominatrix. Never the way i played, but sure its hot, so i guess i have to update my game. Although i think that says more about the people who populate wizards forums having a kink for drow and then feeling bad about being naughty and wanting to self-flagellate over how its bad then anything about the archetype.

The girls were more mixed on this one, one girl said "wow drow are dominatrixes? Can i roll one up now and ditch my human?" So clearly she was offended to the core.....

my fiance said that these people need to get a life and learn how to distinguish gaming from real life. Adding somewhere in her rant about it that drow arent real, and nothing that a fantasy race of evil spider worshipping elves in a make believe world does has anything to say about real life women, feminism, or any guys opinion thereof.

I am sort a mix of both, sure its absurd to assume an entire species and gender would all share the same kink. But then its also absurb that any race with as many enemies as drow and as slow a life cycle could kill each left and right like they do and still be around to whip anybody. So really, just umm really.......

3. A thread by a man about where to find and date gamer girls.... Real gender equality stuff there, although interesting side note, apparently theres a gamer dating site, so maybe this bit of female equality will help some people out, mainly guys though i think.

4. basically assorted other junk. mainly about art work that seemed to be drivel. Notable was another thread by a guy whining how he can never say he's a feminist around feminists without them getting at him for some reason. Also a cook book thread with some tasty looking game snack recipes (no joke) so umm down with gender stereotypes and all that except when it costs us munchies i guess.

About the other thread worth anything was one about situations girls object to which listed sexism from NPCs and rape. What i found somewhat interesting was how different gms handle rape in game. so i guess if there was actually a guy out there who didnt realize graphic rape decriptions might upset girls and he happened to look in a forum for girl gamer issues that might be worth something.

Its not necesarrily the concept of this i find flawed, maybe its a good one. When i asked the girls in my game if they would like to talk to other girls about gaming both said yes, but then when i tried to get my fiance to actually read something on that forum and respond she hit the drow thread for 5 minutes fired of a sarcastic response and promptly went to myspace to stare at pages of people from highschool she hadnt talked to in 8 years including taking the effort to actually send a message rather then stare at thier blogs... so umm i guess the drive to discuss female gamer issues wasnt that great.

The problem to me seemed to be all the pointless drivel taking up space there. Maybe i am just insensitive but if a girl in my group insisted she was deeply offended by a picture of a chainmail bikini in a book and wasnt satisfied by my answer to buy something else then i think i would just stare at her for a minute perplexed before going back to GMing the game and hoping she went away rather then rant about an easily solved problem.

Thats why i asked what peoples opinions of the topics were, and not necesarily the concept of the parlour itself.

 

[SavageRobby]

And the reason is something called disparate impact.

Like it or not, organizations that cater to the majority only- excluding others- has a disperate impact upon society relative to similar organizations that cater exclusively to minorities. Such environments have demonstrated an unfortunate tendency to be fertile grounds for back-room deals that serve only to keep the majority in power.

It may not start that way, true, and such an outcome is not inevitable, but it happens often enough that courts and lawmakers get wary and err on the side of busting them open

Awareness of the alleged reasons and feelings about them are not the same thing. I am fully aware of the policy (among others), the centuries worth of reasons (good or bad), the various specific turmoil points that cause specific rulings (and precedence) and the attendant legislation. Anyone in the US who was attended grade school from the 70s on and who paid even a tiny bit of attention should have at least a small understanding.

But you are missing the point by trying to equate a rational understanding with an emotional reaction. I understand the arguments to disallow certain special interests based on the vague notion they might become adversarial to less-influentional sectors (I prefer less influential to minority, because the supposed once-majority - white males - aren't anymore). Along the same lines, I understand the arguments for, say, affirmative action.

But even understanding, I don't agree with them, and I think policies like that fuel the ignorant that then troll in places like Asterid's Parlor. I think both are ultimately divisive policies. Either we're equal, or we're not. Now, let's be clear; some would troll regardless, even if we were a social utopia. But I've found more of the types that throw around terms like "feminazi" are more frustrated by what they perceive as an inequity or prejudice, simply because they were born with a certain a gender and skin color that happens to place them in the social "majority" (those with more influence, allegedly).


Ultimately, understanding cuts both ways. I said it before, I think too many folks hide between "you don't know what its like to be [____________]", and forget that everyone (well, most everyone) has feelings like that. And to claim your story of misunderstanding is more compelling or more important or more relevant than someone else's promotes ignorance, it doesn't abate it.





Edit: Knock on wood - for the most part, this is the most civilized discussion I've seen on something like this on a messageboard in a long time. I hope I didn't just jinx it, but I thought it worth mentioning.

 

[olshanski]

The problem to me seemed to be all the pointless drivel taking up space there.

No kidding, all that pointless drivel could be taking up space here instead!

 

[roguerouge]

I highlighted parts of my original quote.

I agree that the behavior is unwarranted. But look closer; except for pure sociopaths, poor behavior is almost always preceded by some legitimate gripe (at least to the person in question). Simply saying, "They're acting boorish" without an attempt to understand why is as short-sighted as, well, trolling in a forum devoted to women's issues because one doesn't understand women's issues.

Eh. We've got the same approach, actually; we just disagree. You quoted my understanding of their (illegitimate) gripe, namely "What they resent is someone talking about gender from a woman's perspective AT ALL." I think the digital medium's anonymity can have the tendency to bring out some people's sociopathic side.

 

[Slife]

And the reason is something called disparate impact.

Like it or not, organizations that cater to the majority only- excluding others- has a disperate impact upon society relative to similar organizations that cater exclusively to minorities. Such environments have demonstrated an unfortunate tendency to be fertile grounds for back-room deals that serve only to keep the majority in power.

And women are a majority. So you're saying that Curves "[has] an unfortunate tendency to be fertile grounds for back-room deals that serve only to keep the majority" (Which in the example we're talking about is women) "in power."

An interesting argument, to be sure.

 

[Elf Witch]

I just spent 3 hours looking over that forum and i didnt see any of what your talking about. on the whole first page of threads there wasnt one feminazi comment, or the word dyke. So i think maybe your yelling fire in a theatre where no one can even smell smoke.

What i did see and point out to my fiance and neighbor whose also a female gamer where several threads about

1. Chainmail bikinis.

Both women said it thier characters wouldnt wear one but it didnt bother them either and looked at little puzzled at the page count....

2. 2 threads about drow.

I never knew this but apparently ever drow in creation somehow became a dominatrix. Never the way i played, but sure its hot, so i guess i have to update my game. Although i think that says more about the people who populate wizards forums having a kink for drow and then feeling bad about being naughty and wanting to self-flagellate over how its bad then anything about the archetype.

The girls were more mixed on this one, one girl said "wow drow are dominatrixes? Can i roll one up now and ditch my human?" So clearly she was offended to the core.....

my fiance said that these people need to get a life and learn how to distinguish gaming from real life. Adding somewhere in her rant about it that drow arent real, and nothing that a fantasy race of evil spider worshipping elves in a make believe world does has anything to say about real life women, feminism, or any guys opinion thereof.

I am sort a mix of both, sure its absurd to assume an entire species and gender would all share the same kink. But then its also absurb that any race with as many enemies as drow and as slow a life cycle could kill each left and right like they do and still be around to whip anybody. So really, just umm really.......

3. A thread by a man about where to find and date gamer girls.... Real gender equality stuff there, although interesting side note, apparently theres a gamer dating site, so maybe this bit of female equality will help some people out, mainly guys though i think.

4. basically assorted other junk. mainly about art work that seemed to be drivel. Notable was another thread by a guy whining how he can never say he's a feminist around feminists without them getting at him for some reason. Also a cook book thread with some tasty looking game snack recipes (no joke) so umm down with gender stereotypes and all that except when it costs us munchies i guess.

About the other thread worth anything was one about situations girls object to which listed sexism from NPCs and rape. What i found somewhat interesting was how different gms handle rape in game. so i guess if there was actually a guy out there who didnt realize graphic rape decriptions might upset girls and he happened to look in a forum for girl gamer issues that might be worth something.

Its not necesarrily the concept of this i find flawed, maybe its a good one. When i asked the girls in my game if they would like to talk to other girls about gaming both said yes, but then when i tried to get my fiance to actually read something on that forum and respond she hit the drow thread for 5 minutes fired of a sarcastic response and promptly went to myspace to stare at pages of people from highschool she hadnt talked to in 8 years including taking the effort to actually send a message rather then stare at thier blogs... so umm i guess the drive to discuss female gamer issues wasnt that great.

The problem to me seemed to be all the pointless drivel taking up space there. Maybe i am just insensitive but if a girl in my group insisted she was deeply offended by a picture of a chainmail bikini in a book and wasnt satisfied by my answer to buy something else then i think i would just stare at her for a minute perplexed before going back to GMing the game and hoping she went away rather then rant about an easily solved problem.

Thats why i asked what peoples opinions of the topics were, and not necesarily the concept of the parlour itself.

Before you call someone a liar or accuse them of exaggeration you should be aware of all the facts. On Astrids if someone stars throwing names around like femnazi. dyke or other personal attacks a mod will show up and delete the entire post.

Now I have not been on the forum is at least two months but when I was there words like femnazi were thrown around on a daily basis. But if you go back you won't see them because they have been deleted by the mods. May be things have cooled down and a lot of the trolls have left that would be nice.

As for drivel well I have friends who game and think enworld is filled with pointless drivel.

Your comment about the chainmail bikini is a reason why forums like Astrids are needed. So if the players handbook is filled with cheesecake pictures she should just leave the hobby? After all how can she play without a book.

I can't tell you how it fustrates me to not be able to find a decent mini and then to be told well suck it up cheesecake sells and you are not important to me as a customer.

I am not a prude nor am I offended by sexy pictures but I do think there is a place and a time for them. I own several Frazetta's paintings. I thought the female halfling on the cover of dragon was hot. But stupid chain mail bikinis, peek a boo armor and females posed so that both their boobs and butts are jutting out as illustrations of female paladins, fighters and other PC classes does irritate me but not enough to make a big deal over but they do make me roll my eyes.

As for the two woman who you are using as an example I can also point to two woman I know who were turned off by boorish behavior at a gaming table who feel that part of the problem was the atmosphere of gaming as being a all boy's club.

The one showed up for her first game and the DM proudly handed her a painted mini of a female wizard. The wizard was nude from the waist up. When she protested he said it was his only female character and he would find her a better one. The entire session the other guys made sexual jokes till it got very uncomfortable for her. The only reason she plays today is that she joined an all female gaming group and that got her interested in DMing. She eventually met a guy who games and they got married and she plays in a mixed group now and plays with decent guys.

The other had a DM desribe in great detail the rape and vaginal mutliation of her PC she walked out and to this day will not play DnD. I keep trying to get her to join my game.

Over on CM we have a woman's only forum. Most of the guys were okay with it. They understood the need to have aplace to discuss things that we would not want to discuss in front of the guys. The guys could have a men's forum but the consensus was that it would never get used much.

As I said before Astrids is a good idea that does not work. Even when given a thread called I hate Astrids the for a better word trolls don't just post there. As I said I left because I got tired of the endless debate over feminism , should the forum exist, how it was unfair to male gamers, how it was not needed. After a while it seemed like every thread was becoming this and a lot of the regular posters both male and female who really wanted to see the forum work just gave up and went away.

 

[Elf Witch]

And women are a majority. So you're saying that Curves "[has] an unfortunate tendency to be fertile grounds for back-room deals that serve only to keep the majority" (Which in the example we're talking about is women) "in power."

An interesting argument, to be sure.

Woman may be the majority but they don't hold the majority of power. Men still tend to hold the majority of high ranking powerful postitions in comapnies and politics.

You know the main reason places like Curves exsist it is because there are woman who don't feel comfortable working out in front of men. There are enough woman who feel this way to make a profitable business of it.

I have to wonder if a men's only exercise room would make a profit if it would matter that much to men?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And women are a majority. So you're saying that Curves "[has] an unfortunate tendency to be fertile grounds for back-room deals that serve only to keep the majority" (Which in the example we're talking about is women) "in power."

Sorry if I was unclear.

I myself pointed out they're a majority...within the gross population of the world.

And while that is true, women are a minority within most of the power structures of the world. In this country, the majority demographic within the power structure is...the white male. Thus, my argument refers to organizations in this country that cater to white males.

 

[Graf]

I need to start reading threads all the way through before posting.

In so far as it's being discussed: Titillating art in fantasy books is just that it's designed to sexually titillate. Objectification of women as sex objects is fun, for the objectifiers and can be unpleasant for people who are being objectified.

The fact that a group of folks have created a space where they can discuss it is a good thing.

[sblock=original post]

Talk about a pregnant PC and you will get these posters telling you that your PC has to take all kinds of minuses and no decent mother to be would risk her baby so her alignment should shift. When you mention hand waving things away like you do other things they get pissy.

Not to toot our own horns here, but this came up recently and I think EnWorld collectively did basically what you seem to want.

Obviously you've been riled by some posts, but assuming things about people is a two way street.

This may come off as simplistic and craven, but the op not understanding something and posting about it, inviting comments, etc. doesn't have to be a challenge. He could be just talking to his friends over beer and re-enforcing his own notions of gender equality instead of posting someplace publicly and inviting comment.[/sblock]