[OPINIONS QUERY] Paladin-Alignment Situation!!

[NetWolf]

Gathering different player's opinion on something that happened around the gaming table this past weekend...


D&D3ed campaign, party of 6 PCs, approx. 10th level
Deep in the Underdark (29 days in!)
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PC1: A paladin of a battle-god; paladinhood equals knighthood in this game setting. Lawful Good, of course. Sir Paladin prides himself on his honor and his fighting-ability. He will destroy evil where ever he finds it... including orc children, which he has put to the sword in the past (but they did detect as 'evil!')
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PC2: A Neutral Good dwarf fighter; raised in the wilds of the Underdark - his parents/other clan members fled when their ancestrial home was overrun by orc,ogres,etc. He was raised with tales of the great days of Clan BattleForge, sense of honor, etc... but he has never seen it's halls. He longs for what was lost. This PC was freed by the party underground and joined them in their mission.
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Situation: While above-ground, the paladin received some "advice" from a good cleric (higher level.) "The county is being ruled by an evil man - find the legendary 'Arms of Haran' and you can challenge the Count and free the land!" Sir Paladin has already found the 'Spurs of Haran' and has been wearing them for quite a while.
Party finds/frees a good dwarf fighter. He's honorable (in his low-charisma manner!) and fights beside the paladin to the party's benefit.
Party finishes a fight with some evil monsters (grell) and finds an ornate, large, steel shield. The Arms of Haran are emblazoned on the front of the shield... and a maker's mark is clearly seen on the back. The maker's mark proves it was fashioned by the MasterSmith of Clan BattleForge, a distant relative of the dwarf. An argument ensues between the paladin and the dwarf...
The dwarf argues that he should be given the shield, as he has the stronger claim to it. The "Rightful Owner" is the current, despotic ruler of the county (the Arms belong to the Office.) Being that it can't be given to it's rightful owner right now, it should be entrusted to the dwarf... as a clanmember and relative of the maker.
The paladin argues that he needs the shield to free an enslaved land and people. He then states that he already bears the Spurs of Haran! (He shows the spurs to the dwarf... they also bear the same maker's mark) The dwarf then asks for the spurs as well!!! The paladin refuses...
Because the dwarf bears a debt of honor to the party (they freed him from an evil monster's grip) he reigns in his temper and only hot-words are traded... he calls the paladin honorless and a thief, and turns his back on the knight.

Meta-Game Concerns: The DM *seems* to have sided with the paladin. The player running the paladin was unsure of his legal right to the shield and asked the DM several questions about it... I would think a paladin would inherently know that his claim was weaker and his sense of right would prompt him to return property that is not his.

What is your take on this predicament?



NetWolf, player of the dwarven PC (assuming that wasn't evident from the slanted-telling above!)

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

It's been underground for many, many years, and is legally the property of the evil man the Paladin is planning on killing.

Noone in the party has any legal claim on it. The Paladin was ordered by his god to retrieve it, and the dwarf feels that it's his because of his Clan.

The dwarf has no legal claim. It was made by his clan, but had obviously passed out of their hands before it wound up in that cave.

The Paladin, likewise, has no legal claim. All he has is his god's command to take the thing-- which has no legal merit unless the Paladin's church wields temporal power in the campaign setting. This is not the default for D&D, because of the pantheistic nature of D&D gods.

In this case, I think the Paladin should take the shield so that he can fulfill the dictates of his god and free the people. Then, and only for the sake of party unity, he should turn the shield and the spurs over to the dwarf. The dwarf still has no legal claim, but this is highly important to him. It's really a small thing for the Paladin to do.

 

[Bastoche]

A maker is not an owner. I guess clan Battleforge create the items for that Haran Guy. I don't think the dwarf has a claim over the items. He could be proud of the craftmanship though. And the sheild could be given to the character who needs it the most from an effeciency point of view. Of course, the paladin will need both the shield and the spurs to kick the despot's butt.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I'm with them. Just because you made something, and certainly just because your Clan made something, doesn't give you a right to have it.

Let the Dwarf have first choice of treasure for a while, and the Paladin should promise to look at the situation again when his mission is completed.

Perhaps the two of them could journey to the halls of the Clan (after getting much clues to where they are etc etc and much adventuring) and return the items to the clan or something?

 

[Arnwyn]

Korimyr has said exactly what I would say. I agree - no one has legal claim to it.

The paladin should use the items to free the land, and then hand over the items to the dwarf afterwards.

Alternately, if the dwarf agrees to help the paladin, the paladin can give the items to the dwarf, and the dwarf can challenge the Count!

 

[NetWolf]

Interesting views, all...

I guess I *was* considering that being a relative of the item's maker gave me more of a claim.

Logic went something like...
The item was lost then found by the party; when it comes to divying up treasure among the party my claim was best because it was made by my people, despite the "need" of the paladin.


Hmmm...

Well, dwarves are known to be greedy...


Any other views/opinions out there???


-Netwolf, (player of) Kordache of ClanBattleForge

 

[mythago]

"Legal claim"? Is this guy a paladin, or a lawyer?

I'd think to settle who is the rightful, permanent owner, the paladin would want a proper council of judgment (court, etc.) to rule on the subject.

In the meantime, I don't see why the paladin didn't say "Take the shield--and use it to fight by my side against the evil Count!" Then everyone's happy.

 

[Mirth]

Isn't it obvious? This is not the real Shield of Haran, it's a cursed replica that is warping the minds of the party against each other. This evil artifact must be destroyed at once! Throw it into the fires of Mt. Doom!

 

[Mordane76]

Even as the "makers" of the items, if they were commissioned by Haran (since they bear his name), then unless someone can prove he sold these items to someone else, they belong to him. If Haran is dead, then either they belong to his estate, or if he has no estate, they belong to the state. From what I'm reading, it would appear that Haran is dead, and that the state has laid claim; the Dwarf is clearly without legal recourse, unless the laws of the land state differently than what we would expect.

The Paladin doesn't necessarily OWN the items, and I'm not sure he feels as though he does, so I'd be inclined to follow the paladin as well. The DM has to be careful, though, because he might be siding with the paladin because of his developed plot-line, and this difficulty could present a side-plot that he's not prepared (or willing) to pursue.

 

[mythago]

It depends on what the laws of the imaginary world in question are.