[OPINIONS QUERY] Paladin-Alignment Situation!!

[Gargoyle273]

The dwarf has no claim to either the spurs or the shield due to the markings. If the markings had been of his CLAN, and not of the maker, he would have a claim to state because the items would belong to that clan. Since the marking of his CLAN is not present, it neither belongs to that clan nor the members of it, it was only made by one from his clan and there is no proof that it was ever kept by the clan. The dwarf can feel pride that he is related to the master craftsman who forged such fine items, but they were likely sold to this Haran fellow.

The paladin was commanded by his god to retrieve the items of Haran and use them in the quest, but he also has no claim. He can offer to the party (the rightful owners of both items) to keep these things in trust until his quest is completed. When finished, if he wants to keep them, he can offer to compensate everyone including the dwarf for the shield. The dwarf was not present for the finding of the spurs so he gets no compensation.

That would be the paladin thing to do.

 

[clark411]

Nice predicament. as stated above, I can't see either having a "true" claim over it.

The Paladin wishes to use it for his god, which translates poorly to the realm of mortals (unless it doesn't... in the campaign). The dwarf's case, while definitely as dwarven as all get out, is also invalid. If dwarves could lay direct, legal claim to any of the fine crafts that they make, no one would ever, Ever pay dwarven prices for fine dwarven equipment. Just imagine a king paying a king's ransom for a crown of gold appropriate of the stature of him and his ancestors for all time... now just imagine him thinking that the dwarves would come when he died trying to get the crown back as he, the buyer, was thoroughly dead. No sir.

Ultimately, things seem to have developed as they should, the paladin selflessly tries to use the Arms for good, the dwarf greedily or stubbornly claims that the make of his clan is his if found. Neither is necessarily in the right. Very nifty

 

[NetWolf]

As the originator of this thread, I have to admit that I'm a bit surprised by everyone's input... but then, I'm playing the dwarf and arrogantly assumed I was correct!! ;-)

Here are a couple of additional points to add some details to this fine discussion...

1) The DM does indeed have a plotline for the paladin to fill. A mini-quest whereby the paladin is to "gain" the Arms of Haran (spurs, shield, armor, sword, etc) then challenge the evil Count that currently holds power. Nothing new there, except for this wrinkle thrown in by the dwarf. Meta-game so this point shouldn't be factored into either of the character's thinking.

2) There is something of a precedent that has been set in previous gameplay: The party found a cursed, evil sword down in the Underdark. It bore the markings of the same MasterSmith of the dwarf's clan... the paladin, of course, wanted to destroy the sword. The dwarf also wants to see the "foul, corruption that has been applied to his ancestor's handiwork" destroyed. The dwarf demanded the sword from the paladin, stating it was a blot on the honor of the clan and that as a clan-member, he was oath-bound to see it destroyed. The paladin capitulated and placed the sword into the dwarf's care, until a suitable place of destruction is found. Not as much conflict here because both PCs want to achieve the same ends.


I guess as a gamer, I felt (incorrectly, I see now) my PC had a better claim to the shield than the paladin... even though I had every intention of giving it back to the paladin!! I'm playing the dwarf as desiring "things" and other acknowledgements that associate him with his lost heritage. This shield was one of them. So, I'm not going to adjust my playing of this lil guy... he can be wrong and make bad judgements, but I feel his motivation if true to the character and logical, given his background and life experiences.

Uh... yes, I consider myself a real role-player.


- NetWolf, (player of) Kordache of Clan BattelForge

 

[Apok]

Unfortunately, talking about legal claims and property rights is useless unless those rules are established relative to the campaign world you are playing in.

Typically speaking, someone who makes an item (the Dwarf's ancestors) owns it until it is sold or given freely. If clan Battleforge made these arms as a gift or as part of a comission, they belong to whomever recieved the gift or comission (apparently this Haran guy). Since the arms are now owned by "Big Evil Dude," noone in the party has any legal claim to them. Of course, the Pally ain't going to return the arms to their rightfull owner, he's going to use them to kick some evil patootie. Basically, the Paladin has a mandate from his chruch to use these arms to fight the Count and the Dwarf wants the arms because they were made by his ancestors.

Hate to break it to you, but your Dwarf has no claim unless the Arms in question were stolen from his Clan. The Paladin has no valid claim either, so you are going to have to work this out for yourselves.

Perhaps you could give us some more history on these arms. Did the BattleForge clan make them as a comission or were they stolen? How did the Count come to own these arms? Does Haran have any family still alive?

Edit: As an aside, while we talk about things like "legal claim" and "original ownership" I think one thing should be taken into consideration above all else; Nine-Tenths of Ownership is Possession. If you find it and can keep it (by whatever means) it's pretty much yours. This is especially true in a world where the strength of Law is equivalent to the strength of the Sword.

 

[NetWolf]

History of the Arms in question

Fair enough Apok...


As I understand it (remember, I'm but a player in the campaign!) Durgheddin the Black, MasterSmith of Clan BattleForge (and all-around skilled dwarf) crafted the Arms of Haran(tm) for the legendary human hero Haran.

Haran went on to right many wrongs and do much good, before founding the county of Haranshire. The Arms then became the property of the Count of Haranshire, and moved from individual to individual in whatever method the Office was transferred.

Many years passed and the Arms of Haran were lost. Good and bad counts came and went, and now the County is ruled by a big, baddie named Carmen. The land and people suffer... taxes are high, morale low... and our paladin is gunning for him, just as soon as we get out of the Underdark!

Meanwhile, back several hundred years at Clan BattleForge...

The dwarven stronghold was overrun by orcs, ogres, trolls, and other assorted nastiness. Durgheddin himself, extinguished the massive fires of his forge and destroyed his tools so that the enemy might gain nothing. The dwarves made a valiant stand, but in the end, they were overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

Many dwarves were away from the stronghold when the attack occurred. Upon their return to the warrens and upon finding them under new ownership, these dwarves fled back to the halls of the Underdark to begin new lives. They passed on legends and tales of their home, their ancestors, their traditions. A generation passed in this way... then another... and another... until one day a hall-dwarf was released from a troll's cage by a paladin.


- NetWolf (player of) Kordache of Clan BattleForge

 

[Apok]

Okay, that being the case, my original interpretation holds. Neither of you has a better claim than the other. The armor rightfully belongs to the Count, but since the Pally is going to shine him, it pretty much puts him out of the running. So, between you and the Paladin, it's an even toss-up. Both of you have good reasons for wanting the armor, but neither has much of a legal claim to it. You're just going to have to work it out amongst yourselves and hope it doesn't end in bloodshed.

 

[ajanders]

Paladin and Dwarf Claimants

If the paladin has an order from his god to gather the arms of Haran and use them to fight evil, I don't think any dwarf in the world should be able to budge him on the subject. It is not good to come between a paladin and their god.
The "legality" of the situation is really pretty moot: the closest equivalent in modern Western Law is probably salvage rights, which generally translate to "Finders keepers, losers weepers + a cut for the government."

There may be a discussion as to whether or not this is the most lawful or most good action to take, but it's important to note paladins are not required to take the optimal lawful good action: they may not be chaotic or evil, but gods generally don't expect paladins to be perfect in an imperfect world.

 

[NetWolf]

Fuel for the ire...

Very good points...

But I'll clarify a bit more, and add that it is exactly the Lawful & Good discussion Ajanders mentions that I'm looking for.

The paladin was not "ordered" by his god to seek the armor... he was given some "advice" by an elder cleric. Sir Paladin noted some less than honorable action on the Count's part, he then entered a discussion with said frater and was advised that he could do something about it.

Now, with that said... the DM does indeed have plans for the paladin, arms of Haran, et al. But from the character's points of view... I think all of you are right: neither claim is better/worse than the others.

But the dwarf doesn't have to accept/believe that!!


So, it comes down to a party divying treasure: The dwarf says "my clan made that so it should go to me." Everyone else looks at the dwarf, blinks a time or two, then bursts into laughter.

Maybe the dwarf should have offered to dice for it!?



- NetWolf

 

[Umbran]

Okay, as a number of folks have said, legally speaking these guys seem to be on equal footing.

Given that, I'll venture to say that the paladin is verging on greed. He's focused on having these things for himself. He's willing to set aside the good and honor of others to have them himself, and is not taking the effort to compromise. He's missing three very obvious alternatives...

1)Tell the dwarf what he needs the items for, followed by, "So, sir dwarf, I hope you can see my cause is right and just. If I can use these items for this purpose, I can not only depose the despot, but I can also bring further glory to your clan's name. I offer a compromise - you may take the shield, so long as you either lend it to me when I must face the tyrant, or you stand at my side as my shield man."

2)Tell the dwarf what he needs the items for, followed by, "So, sir dwarf, I hope you can see my cause is right and just. I offer you a compromise - allow me to bear these items until I can face this tyrant on the field, after which you may have them."

3)Tell teh dwarf what he needs the items for, followed by, "So, sir dwarf, I hope you can see my cause ir sight and just. I offer you a compromise - allow me to bear these items, and I will vow to not only use them to depose the tyrant (and thus bring glory to the maker's clan), but I will also undertake a quest with you to further the honor of your clan!

#1 is okay, though it might call for the DM to flex a bit on the powers of the set to work with a shield man.

#2 is honorable - if all he really wants 'em for is to beat the tyrant, he should have no qualms about giving them up afterwards. Though, the new legal owner might claim them anyway, so the paladin would be offering up soemthing that he'd lose anyway, which isn't much of a sacrifice.

In a meta-game sense, the last is far superior. Everyone's happy, it binds the dwarf and the paladin together, and it drops a plot-hook in the DM's lap to use as he pleases, all in one fell stroke! If the paladin were really looking out for the greatest good for all, he'd choose option 3.

 

[Snoweel]

Since the arms are now owned by "Big Evil Dude," noone in the party has any legal claim to them.

This is the key point.

And might I remind you that 'Lawful' and 'Law-abiding' are two entirely different things.

I think the Paladin shouldn't give a dire-rat's ass (loved that) about the laws of this particular land, as they likely interfere with his ability to uphold the tenets of Good.

He's gonna kill/oust the rightful ruler, for Gawd's sake!!! As if that's not against the law.

Likewise, the Paladin has been told to gather these artifacts by a Lawful Good god.

Whatever the Dwarf or anybody else thinks shouldn't mean a brass razoo to the Paladin.

I mean, moral relativism and moral dilemmas shouldn't have any place in the life of a Paladin. He's lawful. He should have a clear list of priorities and a defined protocol in every situation.

He should know what to do and be willing to incapacitate (if not kill) a greedy dwarf or anybody else who interferes with his 'higher missions'. Whether you, me or any other victim of 21st century morality thinks he's wrong, it shouldn't matter to the Paladin.

Even if he or his deity is wrong, he can't afford to doubt and anguish over such trivialities as a dead dwarf.

Sometimes it comes down to the lesser of two evils (and for the Paladin to do nothing could serve Evil more than any other extreme action).

Of course, from your p.o.v., NetWolf, you're doing the right thing by your character (and I applaud your roleplay despite causing problems for the overall plot) to demand the shield. Personally I think the Paladin should take the shield, but my opinion, like the opinions of everybody here, shouldn't mean a thing to your character, especially since they aren't available to him other than in a metagming sense.

Hate to break it to you, but your Dwarf has no claim unless the Arms in question were stolen from his Clan. The Paladin has no valid claim either, so you are going to have to work this out for yourselves.

Well said.

It's entirely up to the characters in question.

I don't think your DM is doing the right thing either by favouring one or the other. Obviously he intended for the Paldin to take it, but if he can't put up with a spanner in his works, he has no place behind the DM shield, especially with such a creative player as yourself.

Stick to your guns. You're making his story more interesting and your DM doesn't even know it.