Opinions wanted on house rules

[Telas]

Okay, I'm considering the following house rules (among others). Please let me know your thoughts.

1. Combining Move Silently and Hide into Sneak. I've seen this one a few times, and think it's a good idea, but I wonder if the skill point boon to Rogues and others is a bit unbalancing.

2. Combining Balance with Tumble. When was the last time someone used Balance? I've been running a game for a year and a half, and nobody's ever used it.

3. All characters receive either 1 rank in a Knowledge skill or 2 ranks in any Craft, Perform, or Profession skill. This is to flesh out the characters at first level (my traditional starting place), and is subject to DM guidance and approval.

4. Craft (Alchemy) does not require spellcasting ability. Alchemy works in spite of, not because of, magical ability.

5. Sorcerers get 4 skill points per level, and metamagic feats like the Wizard, but no familiar (per this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=116376).

6. Monks are limited to Humans only, with no "bonus feat" at first level. It's a low-magic pseudo-European setting, and I'm tired of Monks kicking much ass.

Thanks for your feedback,

Telas

 

[CRGreathouse]

1. Combining Move Silently and Hide into Sneak. I've seen this one a few times, and think it's a good idea, but I wonder if the skill point boon to Rogues and others is a bit unbalancing.

I think you've hit on the main problem. If this doesn't bother you, go ahead and use the variant.

4. Craft (Alchemy) does not require spellcasting ability. Alchemy works in spite of, not because of, magical ability.

This rule was designed to mimic the classes in 3.0 that had Alchemy as a skill. If the idea of Fighters taking Alchemy doesn't bother you (it doesn't bother me), this is a fine change. Remember, the rules aren't assuming that magic is used... they're just trying to class-restrict the use of the skill to reflect traditional fantasy.

5. Sorcerers get 4 skill points per level, and metamagic feats like the Wizard, but no familiar

I think this is too much, especially because I don't believe giving up the familiar is worth anything.

6. Monks are limited to Humans only, with no "bonus feat" at first level. It's a low-magic pseudo-European setting, and I'm tired of Monks kicking much ass.

I don't really think that monks are powerful at all, not even in 3.5. Their damage is very poor and their armor class isn't that great unless you use high-powered rolling methods or high point-buy (36 to 46+).

f you don't think they fit the setting you can just ban them, but I don't think your judgement on their power is fair.

Also, I like the idea of dwarven pugilists. If you're intent on your change as-is, why don't you just remove their bonus Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1, forcing (basically) all monks to take it? That way any race is viable.

 

[Azlan]

1. Combining Move Silently and Hide into Sneak. I've seen this one a few times, and think it's a good idea, but I wonder if the skill point boon to Rogues and others is a bit unbalancing.

I did this. Only, I call it Stealth, not Sneak. The word "sneak" implies moving silently, e.g. you sneak up on someone, from behind; or you sneak down the hallway, over creaky floorboards, while everyone else is sleeping in the adjoining bedrooms.

 

[Azlan]

2. Combining Balance with Tumble. When was the last time someone used Balance? I've been running a game for a year and a half, and nobody's ever used it.

Actually, in my campaigns, Balance is used a lot more than Tumble. For example, in combat, when a character is jogging across cluttered terrain, or standing on an uneven surface while in melee, they must make a Balance check to avoid a mishap. Usually, the DC for this is only "5". But when you're wearing heavy armor, with a -6 or -7 skill check penalty... !

 

[Telas]

Thanks for the replies. Some comments:

I meant to call it Stealth; that's what I get for posting at 1:45 AM.... :\

I haven't been using Balance in the campaign for things like that. DM error, soon to be corrected. I think I'll also use it when anyone's in a crowded space, to avoid the penalty and the loss of Dex bonuses. Thanks.

The player of a sorcerer in my game is highly frustrated at having a high Charisma, but only having three points per level to divide between Spellcraft, Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Craft (Alchemy), and Diplomacy. I rolled up a Wiz, matching the Sorc in just about everything, and IMHO, he's much more versatile and playable than the Sorc in everything but depth of spellcasting (Sorc gets a few more spells per day). The wiz has far more skills, metamagic feats, and available spells. Since I run a skill-heavy, role-heavy game, I decided the Sorc should be a bit more versatile. The player's not one to powergame, so even if it's overpowering, he won't abuse it.

I do have a powergaming Monk in the campaign, however, and he's running roughshod over the other characters. (We use the 32-point buy system.) He can out-stealth the Rogue, out-save everyone, Tumble so much that he never suffers AoOs, and is unhittable with one missile weapon a round. His damage isn't much, but he already gets the "magic fist" while the other PCs are fighting over oils of Magic Weapon. In combat, he accounts for as many kills as anyone.

In a low-magic setting (4-5th level, two magic weapons in a party of seven), the monk is a badass. In Greyhawk, non-human monks aren't a regular sight (early rules didn't have nonhuman monks), so it fits the setting, too.

Although Dwarven pugilists do sound interesting, I think they can be done up as Fighters with all the right feats and maybe a prestige class....?

Telas

 

[Gunton The Terrible]

1. Combining Move Silently and Hide into Sneak. I've seen this one a few times, and think it's a good idea, but I wonder if the skill point boon to Rogues and others is a bit unbalancing.

:\ I wouldn't change this in my game. Although I can see the logic and I wouldn't mind playing in a game that used this rule. Rogues do get a lot of skill points. However, I always find myself lacking in some skill area when I play them.

2. Combining Balance with Tumble. When was the last time someone used Balance? I've been running a game for a year and a half, and nobody's ever used it.

Nah. My group uses both and I like them seperated. Smart fighters usually will buy some balance for tough footing areas, but never will invest in tumbling.

3. All characters receive either 1 rank in a Knowledge skill or 2 ranks in any Craft, Perform, or Profession skill. This is to flesh out the characters at first level (my traditional starting place), and is subject to DM guidance and approval.

I would be careful of just handing out extra skill points. However, why not make it 2 "background" points that are applied to any of the above. Of course limit the use of these points so the groups wizard doesn't put them in Knowledge(Arcane) as free points.

4. Craft (Alchemy) does not require spellcasting ability. Alchemy works in spite of, not because of, magical ability.

Interesting. I wouldn't mind seeing the prereq changed to 2 ranks of Knowledge(Arcane) instead. This way anyone could get the Craft(Alchemy) skill, but at a cost.

5. Sorcerers get 4 skill points per level, and metamagic feats like the Wizard, but no familiar (per this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=116376).

I have seen all sorts of arguments about the power level of the Sorcerer. On paper they do appear weak. However, its been my experience that the Sorcerer in actual game play holds their own. I used to house rule that the Sorcerer got a bonus to Known and Per day spell slots based on their CHA, but I have since vetoed that rule and play the sorcerer as is.

6. Monks are limited to Humans only, with no "bonus feat" at first level. It's a low-magic pseudo-European setting, and I'm tired of Monks kicking much ass.

Huh? Monks kicking much ass? I have never seen that in since 3.0. I have a feeling the player who created the Monk is just better at PC building the other players. In my group no monk can match a fighter in combat. Monks are great at piercing the front lines and attacking supporting spell casters, but if they get back there and the BBEG is a fighter...good buy monk.

These are just my opinions, but thats what you were looking for.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Okay, I'm considering the following house rules (among others). Please let me know your thoughts.

Certainly! It's nice to see a post like this where the poster has a *reasonable* number of house rules to look at. I saw one such post where the guy had a 30 page PDF. Umm, no, not all at once!

1. Combining Move Silently and Hide into Sneak. I've seen this one a few times, and think it's a good idea, but I wonder if the skill point boon to Rogues and others is a bit unbalancing.

I did that, as well as combining Listen and Spot into Perception. I'm still playtesting it and I'm not 100% sure that I like the results. It does make the party more likely to sneak than fight, though, which I like. So the jury's still out on this one.

2. Combining Balance with Tumble. When was the last time someone used Balance? I've been running a game for a year and a half, and nobody's ever used it.

If you never use Balance, sure. I find it difficult to find uses for, myself...

3. All characters receive either 1 rank in a Knowledge skill or 2 ranks in any Craft, Perform, or Profession skill. This is to flesh out the characters at first level (my traditional starting place), and is subject to DM guidance and approval.

I went quite a bit further on this one, actually. I gave 8 skill points for humans, half-elves, and half-orcs (races with short childhoods), 16 skill points to gnomes, halflings, and dwarves (longer childhoods), and 24 skill points to elves (longest childhoods). The points can only be spent on Craft, Knowledge, Perform, and Profession skills (and also Culture skills, which is my house rule replacement for Speak Language), and only up to 4 ranks in a skill. So, basically, it's 2, 4, or 6 "free" skills. Granted, this could be a potential problem, but my players know that they're supposed to use them on skills like cooking, woodcarving, or architecture. All the little skills that a real person would have and a 3e character never, ever, ever does.

4. Craft (Alchemy) does not require spellcasting ability. Alchemy works in spite of, not because of, magical ability.

Wasn't aware that stricture was there. Axe away!

5. Sorcerers get 4 skill points per level, and metamagic feats like the Wizard, but no familiar (per this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=116376).

A viable solution. I'd rather give them a *different* bonus, like bonus Draconic feats from Complete Arcana, or bonus feats from other ancestries in Dragon magazine. But that's a flavour thing, and dependant on you owning those books.

6. Monks are limited to Humans only, with no "bonus feat" at first level. It's a low-magic pseudo-European setting, and I'm tired of Monks kicking much ass.

One of the things I miss the least about 1e and 2e is classes being limited by race. That said, I really don't like the monk in any of its incarnations. Too mystical, no enough butt-kicking. My problem with the class is the all-Good saves; I've found the combat to be a bit weak, actually.

So I'm not in agreement with you here. But, hey, 4.5 out of 6 is pretty close to total agreement.

 

[Arkhandus]

1. Combining Move Silently and Hide into Sneak. I've seen this one a few times, and think it's a good idea, but I wonder if the skill point boon to Rogues and others is a bit unbalancing.

Not unbalancing. Go ahead. It does simplify things, and it's rare that you'd actually have to differentiate between going unseen and going unheard, in terms of racial or circumstance modifiers; in terms of skill, people good at moving unseen tend to be good also at being unheard.

2. Combining Balance with Tumble. When was the last time someone used Balance? I've been running a game for a year and a half, and nobody's ever used it.

No problem with that. Lots of synergy between them anyway really. Just say though that, like a Knowledge skill, people can use the skill untrained when the DC is 10 or lower. Or simply remove the trained-only part of tumble.

3. All characters receive either 1 rank in a Knowledge skill or 2 ranks in any Craft, Perform, or Profession skill. This is to flesh out the characters at first level (my traditional starting place), and is subject to DM guidance and approval.

4. Craft (Alchemy) does not require spellcasting ability. Alchemy works in spite of, not because of, magical ability.

Fine, not unbalancing.

5. Sorcerers get 4 skill points per level, and metamagic feats like the Wizard, but no familiar (per this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=116376).

Fine too.

6. Monks are limited to Humans only, with no "bonus feat" at first level. It's a low-magic pseudo-European setting, and I'm tired of Monks kicking much ass.

Fine I suppose for your campaign's flavor, though personally the monks I've played and seen played never really kicked much ass.

 

[Telas]

More comments from the threat author

Thanks again for the feedback; I'm glad I post the proposed changes here before gaming them.

As for the monks being powerful: I realized in reading through the comments that my party has no tank.... Two Rangers, a Rogue, a Sorcerer, two Monks, and a Cleric-Archer. No Barbarians or straight fighters.... no wonder the Monk's kicking butt in combat... :\

Anyway, I'm on the fence about the Monks (which is a change towards the status quo).

As for the rest of the proposed changes:

I'm sticking with the Sorcerer changes for now, but calling it a "beta test". If anything, I'll drop the metamagic/item creation feats, but keep the skills.

I'll keep Balance and Tumble seperated (and actually use Balance against environmental hazards).

I'm also keeping Move Silently and Hide separated, but allowing the players to make one dice roll for both when they're in stealth mode.

The changes for Alchemy and "early life experience" remain.

Telas

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm sticking with the Sorcerer changes for now, but calling it a "beta test". If anything, I'll drop the metamagic/item creation feats, but keep the skills.

One thing I do with sorcerers is to drop Bluff, Spellcraft, and Knowledge (arcana) from their skill list, replaced with any two class skills of the player's choice. I don't see them as studying magic (they're intuitive by nature), and this allows more flexibility for sorcerers.