Optimization and optimizers...

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah. And it’s worth noting this doesn’t have to be an active thing the optimizer does. Simply having an optimized character in a game with non-optimized characters can make the non-optimizers feel bad about their character choices. Being constantly outshined sucks.

You do realise you just reversed the statement you were replying to. That they talked about optimizers trying to make people feel bad and you are claiming that optimizers make you feel bad whether they are trying to or not. This sounds more like a you problem

Complaining that you feel useless because of your own choice (+1) to make a character that fails to meet reasonable expectations for effectiveness (+3) and someone met or even slightly exceeded them (+4) feels like common behaviour for anti-optimizers however.

Yep. Optimizers make the game harder to run. If your goal is challenging the PCs, you have to work that much harder. If your goal is non-trivial fights, they make it that much harder.

If you are running an open table in my experience the reverse is true. You don't know what is turning up so you prepare for +3s - people who have made obviously sensible choices (highest stat in their primary stat, decent Con, either ASIs in primary stat or relevant feats, solid spells). My second worst experience running open table in the 2014 era was when two of the four players were an anti-optimised barbarian and a newbie playing a 2014 monk. (My worst I had to kick someone mid game).

And unless the anti-optimiser is truly terrible I still have to account for them when planning for a closed table. Given that teamwork and synergy are more important than builds they don't make things easier.

 

[aiouh]

If optimizing wasn't encouraged behavior by default the game shouldn't make optimizing good.

Case in point: Swords & Wizardry Complete Revised

Does having high dex matter? Yes. Does it matter all that much above a 14? Also no.

Here's 5e

Do higher ability scores matter? Yes. Do they ever stop mattering? No.

Getting mad at people for optimizing at 5e/PF2e style games (when no other style of play is agreed upon) is kind of like getting mad at people for shooting goals at soccer instead of enjoying the scenery. The games are character builder fantasies.

The important part is that everyone needs to be on the same page. Either everyone goes heavy RP and unoptimized or everyone is optimized to their build. I agree that they don't mix.

 

[soviet]

If optimizing wasn't encouraged behavior by default the game shouldn't make optimizing good.

Case in point: Swords & Wizardry Complete Revised
View attachment 410180

Does having high dex matter? Yes. Does it matter all that much above a 14? Also no.

Here's 5e

View attachment 410181

Do higher ability scores matter? Yes. Do they ever stop mattering? No.

Getting mad at people for optimizing at 5e/PF2e style games (when no other style of play is agreed upon) is kind of like getting mad at people for shooting goals at soccer instead of enjoying the scenery. The games are character builder fantasies.

The important part is that everyone needs to be on the same page. Either everyone goes heavy RP and unoptimized or everyone is optimized to their build. I agree that they don't mix.

Agreed. This is what I was trying to get at earlier in terms of this being a game design/game choice problem. It is not an unavoidable choice for RPG characters to be built from a large menu of bespoke rules packets.

However, if you have a game like this, it is unavoidable that some of them will be better than others. And if you have a game like this that was designed badly, as almost all of them are, it is unavoidable that some of them will be drastically better than others, thus distorting the kinds of characters that can be effective and are likely to be made.

Building a game like this and saying 'oh noes, everyone wants to play an elf and no-one wants to play a dwarf' is a failure of game design.

Choosing to run a game like this and saying 'oh noes, everyone wants to play an elf and no-one wants to play a dwarf' is a failure of GMing and game selection.

 

[prabe]

If optimizing wasn't encouraged behavior by default the game shouldn't make optimizing good.

Getting mad at people for optimizing at 5e/PF2e style games (when no other style of play is agreed upon) is kind of like getting mad at people for shooting goals at soccer instead of enjoying the scenery. The games are character builder fantasies.

The important part is that everyone needs to be on the same page. Either everyone goes heavy RP and unoptimized or everyone is optimized to their build. I agree that they don't mix.

I think the last sentence is the important thing, though there is a large middle space between your two options, and there's nothing inherent to optimization and/or roleplaying that makes them mutually exclusive. Not a major disagreement, just a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I think the last sentence is the important thing, though there is a large middle space between your two options, and there's nothing inherent to optimization and/or roleplaying that makes them mutually exclusive. Not a major disagreement, just a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

Yes, agreed. Let's face it: there are different approaches to RPGing, different playstyles, different values, different aesthetic preferences. So many threads try to paint other approaches as objectively bad, usually by extrapolating jerky behavior as being indicative of the approach.

In my opinion, jerks will always be jerks, despite an arms race of rules trying to force them to play a certain way. The answer is to not play with jerks, and try to play with non-jerks who share your preferences.

If you choose to play with people who don't share your preferences, and they aren't jerks about it, and it still bothers you....you might be the problem.

 

[prabe]

If you choose to play with people who don't share your preferences, and they aren't jerks about it, and it still bothers you....you might be the problem.

I've left tables when everyone else was clearly enjoying the play but it was driving me kinda nuts (in a bad way). I have persistently said, I think, that I was the problem at those tables, not everyone else.