D&D 5E (OPTIMIZATION) THE NAMELESS KING ! THE WIZARD's NIGHTMARE! LAST BOSS

[Ovinomancer]

[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION]: There's not much point in continuing to ask the OP questions. He's been banned from his own thread.

Holy cow, that's hilarious. Must have happened while I was composing - I had that window up for some time.

Re: Animate Undead.

It's not 5 per casting, it's 8 per casting as a 5th level slot. You start with 4 and get 2 more for each spell level above 3rd. You're using 5th level spell, so 4+2+2=8. If your simulacrum also casts it, then it's 16.

However, you cannot keep casting it over and over. The undead are under your control for 24 hours, and if you recast it, you regain control for an additional 24 hours. You do not get more undead. So you have, at most, 16 undead using 5th level slots between you and your sim. You can use a higher level slot if you want, but as those are limited, that caps them at 24 hours (after that they are uncontrollable and may attack you and your sim; not like they'd be a threat to you) OR it caps your most recent long rest at 24 hours ago.

Well... not quite. Firstly, we must have different spell listings, as the spell created 1 undead +2/spell level above 3rd.

After that, you can cast it as many times as you can, and each time you get another 5 undead under your control (assuming a 5th level slot). So, if you have 2 5th level slots, you can have 16 undead under your control.

However, as you note, you lose control over them after 24 hours if you don't cast the spell on them again.

Theoretically, the coffeelock could have some arbitrarily high number of 5th level slots, and therefore a large number of zombies and skeletons, but he couldn't retain control over them for long, as he'd eventually run out of whatever large buffer of sorcery points he has, considering he cannot regain enough per day to balance out the daily casting requirement.

Short rest 11 times a day (gotta have 1 hour you are casting the spells and not resting, right?) is 2 2nd level warlock slots burned for 4 sorcery points a rest, so 44 a day. 44 sorcery points is 6 5th level spell slots a day. So, each day of full shortresting means the coffeelock can control 30 zombies and/or skeletons. That's, like seriously threatening. Like, it's not even an easy encounter for a 16th level party of 4. It is an easy encounter for an 11th level party of 4, though, so maybe those undead are off gently menacing that party?

 

[mgshamster]

Holy cow, that's hilarious. Must have happened while I was composing - I had that window up for some time.


Well... not quite. Firstly, we must have different spell listings, as the spell created 1 undead +2/spell level above 3rd.

After that, you can cast it as many times as you can, and each time you get another 5 undead under your control (assuming a 5th level slot). So, if you have 2 5th level slots, you can have 16 undead under your control.

However, as you note, you lose control over them after 24 hours if you don't cast the spell on them again.

Theoretically, the coffeelock could have some arbitrarily high number of 5th level slots, and therefore a large number of zombies and skeletons, but he couldn't retain control over them for long, as he'd eventually run out of whatever large buffer of sorcery points he has, considering he cannot regain enough per day to balance out the daily casting requirement.

Short rest 11 times a day (gotta have 1 hour you are casting the spells and not resting, right?) is 2 2nd level warlock slots burned for 4 sorcery points a rest, so 44 a day. 44 sorcery points is 6 5th level spell slots a day. So, each day of full shortresting means the coffeelock can control 30 zombies and/or skeletons. That's, like seriously threatening. Like, it's not even an easy encounter for a 16th level party of 4. It is an easy encounter for an 11th level party of 4, though, so maybe those undead are off gently menacing that party?

Fair enough. I've always read the spell as being capped at the level you maintain, because any further casting won't raise more but just maintain what you have.

But if we're saying that the CL can maintain 8 per casting, then it's just another 6 sorc points per 8 in the army, per day. Add it to the tally.

 

[FrogReaver]

Basically what we have learned here is that almost no matter what the challenge in D&D a tailor built group of high level wizards (even without magic items) can defeat the challenge.

High level sorcerers fair almost as well.

A high level spell casting villain that outranges almost everyone with access to any magic items he wants is very difficult to take down for most parties and can be tailor made to counter most everything.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Fair enough. I've always read the spell as being capped at the level you maintain, because any further casting won't raise more but just maintain what you have.

But if we're saying that the CL can maintain 8 per casting, then it's just another 6 sorc points per 8 in the army, per day. Add it to the tally.

I'm still reading it as 1 undead +2 pet level over 3rd, so 5 zombies and/or skeletons per cast, not 8. Yeah?

 

[mgshamster]

I'm still reading it as 1 undead +2 pet level over 3rd, so 5 zombies and/or skeletons per cast, not 8. Yeah?

Yes. But you can maintain 4+2/lvl, so that's what I put it at for how much he has ongoing.

 

[Hygor Haas]

Basically what we have learned here is that almost no matter what the challenge in D&D a tailor built group of high level wizards (even without magic items) can defeat the challenge.

High level sorcerers fair almost as well.

Well, the truth is this.

The premises are completely wrong.
-The 3 Wizards need at least 5 Meteor Swarm (WoW) in to reduce their HP to 0. THIS IS NOT ENOUGH, SIMULACRUM CAN USE REVIFY AND THE VILLAIN HAS CLONE SPELL (ROUND 2, They have a big problem without meteor swarms). If it is not sindronized, Advantage + Shield Mastery feat + Favored of The Gods simply ignores the damage of Meteor Swarm, it would be very funny. For this to work, they need to be synchronized, a simple wrong initiative is enough to end this tactic. IGNORING the villain's indirect defenses (Illusion, stealth, and Undeads), they have a 1% chance of working
- The 3 wizards are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE to Subtle Spells and are unable to distinguish the real villain, in fact they do not even know who they are fighting with. Yes, they are on the premise that they know who it is and who can identify it, ignore the Illusions and its simulacrum.
- A simple Meteor Swarm immunity can cause problems for them.
- They are forgetting 200 or more undeads with Arrow + Poison (19 DC, 42 average damage or half if succeful) attacking at 600 'distance. They walk apart, well spaced (Avoiding Area damage). Well, if you still think this is ignorabble, well, think better.
- They can not identify the real villain and ignore illusions. This is a tactic created precisely for counter "Alpha attack".
-Their only effective thing is Meteor Swarm, well, they're dead.


Good,
since a group of wizards can overcome any challenge. Let's go to Round 2.

Ultimate combo revealed.


Will it need 20 wizards?

 

[Istbor]

Basically what we have learned here is that almost no matter what the challenge in D&D a tailor built group of high level wizards (even without magic items) can defeat the challenge.

High level sorcerers fair almost as well.

A high level spell casting villain that outranges almost everyone with access to any magic items he wants is very difficult to take down for most parties and can be tailor made to counter most everything.

What I learned from this, is a villain who isn't really a villain. This is a construct devoid of any detail or story or motivation or goals. It sounds like some lonely, edgy, maladjusted man sitting in an open field in the middle of no-where with nothing but a Sim of himself, and an undead army to converse with. Doing nothing but resting for years, and then what? Remaining in this field. Since one day of action then sets him back for years, or decades before he feels safe again. Where is the threat? What does this person want? He is a Nameless King of nothing, and no adventurer would ever feel the need to face him. Leave him in his open field to grow ever more crazy on how awesome he is.

Now, if this character had goals, motivations, ideals, flaws, and secrets. Then I would maybe bother devising a strategy against him.

 

[mgshamster]

What I learned from this, is a villain who isn't really a villain. This is a construct devoid of any detail or story or motivation or goals. It sounds like some lonely, edgy, maladjusted man sitting in an open field in the middle of no-where with nothing but a Sim of himself, and an undead army to converse with. Doing nothing but resting for years, and then what? Remaining in this field. Since one day of action then sets him back for years, or decades before he feels safe again. Where is the threat? What does this person want? He is a Nameless King of nothing, and no adventurer would ever feel the need to face him. Leave him in his open field to grow ever more crazy on how awesome he is.

Now, if this character had goals, motivations, ideals, flaws, and secrets. Then I would maybe bother devising a strategy against him.

Well, you see, there's this army of undead that's slowly growing on the outskirts of a kingdom, and adventurers were sent in to figure it out. Each group that was sent in never came back* (they were all killed by the CL + Sim), until a high enough level group shows up.

No one has ever figured out his goals, but they do know he indiscriminately kills anyone who comes near to build up his army of undead, so he must he taken down.

*The rare survivor has told you of the equipment and tactics the enemy uses.

 

[Morrus]

Well, the truth is this.

The premises are completely wrong.
-The 3 Wizards need at least 5 Meteor Swarm (WoW) in to reduce their HP to 0. THIS IS NOT ENOUGH, SIMULACRUM CAN USE REVIFY AND THE VILLAIN HAS CLONE SPELL (ROUND 2, They have a big problem without meteor swarms). If it is not sindronized, Advantage + Shield Mastery feat + Favored of The Gods simply ignores the damage of Meteor Swarm, it would be very funny. For this to work, they need to be synchronized, a simple wrong initiative is enough to end this tactic. IGNORING the villain's indirect defenses (Illusion, stealth, and Undeads), they have a 1% chance of working
- The 3 wizards are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE to Subtle Spells and are unable to distinguish the real villain, in fact they do not even know who they are fighting with. Yes, they are on the premise that they know who it is and who can identify it, ignore the Illusions and its simulacrum.
- A simple Meteor Swarm immunity can cause problems for them.
- They are forgetting 200 or more undeads with Arrow + Poison (19 DC, 42 average damage or half if succeful) attacking at 600 'distance. They walk apart, well spaced (Avoiding Area damage). Well, if you still think this is ignorabble, well, think better.
- They can not identify the real villain and ignore illusions. This is a tactic created precisely for counter "Alpha attack".
-Their only effective thing is Meteor Swarm, well, they're dead.


Good,
since a group of wizards can overcome any challenge. Let's go to Round 2.

Ultimate combo revealed.


Will it need 20 wizards?

You were specifically asked not to post in this thread again. Since you won't do it willingly, I guess I have to make you.

 

[MisterWhisper]

It is almost like I mentioned this 12 pages ago...