Orbs vs. Evocations II- with level by level data

[Rystil Arden]

Really...because I would TOTALLY allow that feat in my campaign. And everyone would have it at 1st level. And the entire world would implode.

Back to reality....

We are comparing Empower with Sudden Empower. You can already Sudden Empower three times a day by purchasing a metamagic rod, so doing so once a day without a magic item seems fair to me.

Am I the only person who plays DnD that says to himself "Man, there used to be a day where a wizard could expect to kill someone with direct damage." If the internet existed in its current form when 1st edition came out would be having these same discussions about Fireball and Disintegrate because god forbid they can kill monsters with one shot.

DS

Actually, I don't necessarily agree with him that Sudden Metamagic feats break the game. However, I am disputing your dismissal in post 86--he has every right to protest that the feat has gone too far, despite the per day limit, and the fact that you agreed that my example feat was ludicrous proves this.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Sudden metamagic trades unlimited-uses-a-day for not-increasing-spell-level.

Who would ever take a feat that let them use metamagic once a day WITH a level penalty?

Suppose it were like this: you don't have to prepare the spell in a higher-level slot, but you can't apply a Sudden feat if you couldn't apply the regular version.

In other words, if you can't cast 8th-level spells, you can't cast a Maximized Empowered Fireball, so you can't cast a Fireball with Sudden Maximize and Sudden Empower. But if you COULD cast 8th-level spells, then you could apply those Sudden feats to a Fireball in its ordinary 3rd-level slot.

The advantage of the "Sudden" feats would then be the use-it-on-the-fly aspect, not the greatly-break-level-requirement aspect.

As a DM, I'm EXTREMELY concerned about allowing these feats. If I allow them for PCs, they'll be used by NPCs, and for NPCs they're far greater in power (since an NPC typically only has one combat per day -- against the PCs). A 39-pt fireball at 5th level is pretty devastating.

 

[James McMurray]

Disintigrate 3.5 is a poor choice for comparison. Because of the save it destroys undead left and right, but just tickles almost everyone else. IMX Disintigrate is used more for the ability to destroy objects and scenery. If you're using it in combat it's because you're facing undead, non-golem constructs, or are out of other options.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

The advantage of the "Sudden" feats would then be the use-it-on-the-fly aspect, not the greatly-break-level-requirement aspect.

Sorcerers can already use the feats on-the-fly without the once-a-day limit, so that would make that metamagic feat kinda poopy.

Anyhow, this is waaaaay OT, I apologize for the hijack.

DS

 

[Kmart Kommando]

You know, Transmutation trumps conjuration and evocation by far. Polymorph blows away any other feat and spell combo I've seen in play to date, and my groups like to compete for most damage output per encounter.

Our dwarf wizard out damaged the Bo9S classes, the undead specialist monk/ranger, the sorc blaster, and had the highest AC in the party, as well as the best overall defenses. Without a single direct damage spell.

 

[FireLance]

Am I the only person who plays DnD that says to himself "Man, there used to be a day where a wizard could expect to kill someone with direct damage." If the internet existed in its current form when 1st edition came out would be having these same discussions about Fireball and Disintegrate because god forbid they can kill monsters with one shot.

Nostalgia is fine, but it doesn't make a compelling argument.

Killing monsters with a single direct damage spell is fine - within reason. If the party is facing a large number of lower-level opponents, say eight opponents with CR equal to APL -4, I'm quite happy for the spellcaster to deal instant death with every spell. Presumably, the rest of the party will also be cutting a bloody swathe through these inferior opponents.

However, if the party is facing an opponent that is supposed to give them a tough fight, say with a CR equal to APL +2 or +3, I don't want the spellcaster to dispose of him in the first round of combat. I want all the PCs to work together to bring him down.

Naturally, this is just my preferred gaming style. YMMV.

 

[shmoo2]

I do not know if this has been covered yet but if the orbs were changed to spell resistance: yes how would that change their average damage and would they be worth taking?

Looking at the original post it looks like many of the ratios would drop very low.

What ratio would be best to aim for?

Ratios for the orbs if they allow SR:
level ratio
7 1.04
8 1.15
9 1.27
10 1.31
11 1.22
12 1.31
13 1.36
14 1.42
15 1.36
16 1.51

(Of course, saves still are harder to beat than touch AC, but it makes using the orbs a much tougher decision.)

 

[shmoo2]

what if they stayed were still touch spells but after a successful touch, they got a save for half damage? How would that effect the damage at later levels?

ratios if orbs allow a save for half damage (but no SR):

level ratio
7 1.09
8 1.05
9 1.13
10 1.23
11 1.20
12 1.33
13 1.51
14 1.70
15 1.33
16 2.01

SR seems to have more effect than saves at high levels.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

haha. i didn't notice my typo until you quoted it. anyway thanks to the data.

 

[Felix]

This may seem like an odd question, but isn't that the way it should be?

I would hope that the character who picked up the metamagic would have a reason to use it rather than it being obviously better to not use it.

Metamagic spells add flexibility to a caster's spell repitoire.

For the sorcerer who doesn't have many spells known, metamagic gives him the ability to use lower-level spells effectively without having to choose higher-level but similar function spells. He can pick up Teleport and still use empowered Fireballs.

For the wizard, who knows a lot of spells but doesn't have the spells per day to cast them all, metamagic can improve the specific effect of a lower level spell that isn't improved by a higher level one: an Extended Magic Jar will let the necromancer wreak havoc for twice as long; a Stilled Dimension Door will get him out of tight spots (read: grappled) better than will a Teleport. Though for the wizard lacking easy access to inexpensive scribing, he will also benefit from Metamagic in a similar fashion to the Sorcerer: he can get Sending and Telekinesis scribed for free and Empower his Lightning Bolts.

On the whole, a higher level spell should be "better" than a lower level metamagiced one. Results will vary depending on play style, and certainly there are times when metamagiced spells will be more appropriate, but I don't think they should be better than higher level spells when the effect of the two spells is exactly (or even nearly) the same.

Of course, this post carries the foul reek of opinion.