Orbs vs. Evocations II- with level by level data

[Rystil Arden]

I think that this is very BBEG dependent. His grunts may be pushovers but the boss could have some sort of response, especially if he knows that they are used.



On a failed save disintegrate does 2d6 per caster level with a maximum of 40d6.
The orb is doing 1d6 per level with a maximum of 15d6.

I am going to ignore the empower unless the disintegrate guy also gets to use a feat on his spell.

Disintegrate also goes 4 times as far and has special effects on certain game effects but I think those do not matter for this thread.

But it does make an interesting comparison with disintegrate. Does anyone feel that disintegrate is a good spell to take and use against big bad guys?

According to the chart the orb at level 16 is at 98.7 damage.
Using the chart if the orb was subject to spell resistance it would be 53.30.
Disintegrate would be at 0.94x0.54x(32d6x0.39+5d6x0.61) = 27.59

So someone might pick and use the orb but who would ever choose disintegrate? If no one would pick it then should it be something to aspire to?

You ignored Empower? So we're also comparing a level 4 spell to a level 6 spell

 

[IanB]

You ignored Empower? So we're also comparing a level 4 spell to a level 6 spell

I think at level 16 on the chart the orb has been admixtured.

 

[Slaved]

You ignored Empower? So we're also comparing a level 4 spell to a level 6 spell

I know but the comparison was an orb against disintegrate. The comparison has some flaws, such as the orb having an energy type plus a secondary effect and disintegrate goes farther and has other benefits, but allowing one guy to use a feat plus the higher level slot against a guy just using the higher level slot seemed rather bad to me.

I refrained from giving the disintegrate guy sudden maximize so that they would both be using one feat.

I think at level 16 on the chart the orb has been admixtured.

Really? If that is true then the numbers in the chart are not useful anymore.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think at level 16 on the chart the orb has been admixtured.

Ah, he used the chart? Then never mind.

I know but the comparison was an orb against disintegrate. The comparison has some flaws, such as the orb having an energy type plus a secondary effect and disintegrate goes farther and has other benefits, but allowing one guy to use a feat plus the higher level slot against a guy just using the higher level slot seemed rather bad to me.

It's a perfectly fair comparison unless you assume that blaster casters don't take Empower Spell anyway, and if they didn't that would be remarkably silly of them. For the Evoker, for instance, she can get 15d6 Fireballs at level 10 or 10d6 Cones of Cold. The jump in damaging spells from Empower Spell is unignorable--it is fair to assume they both have the feat.

Really? If that is true then the numbers in the chart are not useful anymore.

No, they are indeed useful. They would be useless if shmoo did not bring the Orb spells up to the corect spell level for comparison. Notice also that he helped out Evocation by creating a fictitious (and more powerful than any existing Evocation spell of that level) level 4 Evocation spell that scales to 15d6.

 

[IanB]

The more I look at metamagic feats the less I like them.

 

[Slaved]

It's a perfectly fair comparison unless you assume that blaster casters don't take Empower Spell anyway, and if they didn't that would be remarkably silly of them.

Having one guy get to use a 6th level slot and a feat against a guy who only gets the 6th level slot is fair? I think to be fair the second guy should get to use a feat as well. To make this comparison easier spell focus would be an all right choice, certainly better than any of the sudden feats.

No, they are indeed useful.

I would find it more useful if it was spelled out more clearly and it gave different listings for different uses. Especially since the base assumption already is using the best energy possible against each foe which could mean that this hypothetical blaster has spent 8 feats to get where he is.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The more I look at metamagic feats the less I like them.

Really? Is this just because of the Orb talk though? Honestly, it seems to me the case of thinking everything that can be used with Orbs are broken without using Occam's Razor to find the common element. I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim that Energy Admixture is an overpowered feat until the last thread where somebody said that. It's a niche feat that has its uses but isn't overly useful compared to other options, until you throw orbs in the mix. This is true for pretty much everything that synergises with Orbs--the other stuff plays well until the Orbs come along.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Having one guy get to use a 6th level slot and a feat against a guy who only gets the 6th level slot is fair? I think to be fair the second guy should get to use a feat as well. To make this comparison easier spell focus would be an all right choice, certainly better than any of the sudden feats.



I would find it more useful if it was spelled out more clearly and it gave different listings for different uses. Especially since the base assumption already is using the best energy possible against each foe which could mean that this hypothetical blaster has spent 8 feats to get where he is.

I think that both of them would have Empower Spell, though. I've never seen a caster who wanted to blast things that didn't have Empower Spell. Thus, since both of them have Empower Spell (heck, we may even be comparing the same guy firing two of his different level 6 spells), it is perfectly fair that the Disintegrate can't use the feat because it is already level 6. That said, if you must add in an extra feat to give the Disintegrate-user an added advantage, I do agree that Spell Focus would be much more fair for comparison than Sudden Metamagic. Spell Penetration works too.

 

[IanB]

Really? Is this just because of the Orb talk though? Honestly, it seems to me the case of thinking everything that can be used with Orbs are broken without using Occam's Razor to find the common element. I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim that Energy Admixture is an overpowered feat until the last thread where somebody said that. It's a niche feat that has its uses but isn't overly useful compared to other options, until you throw orbs in the mix. This is true for pretty much everything that synergises with Orbs--the other stuff plays well until the Orbs come along.

Nah, I've never liked the 15d6 vs 10d6 fireball vs. cone of cold example either, or the 20d6 admixtured fireball vs 13d6 delayed blast fireball, etc. etc. etc.

They seem to break the spell level system in fundamental ways to me, or at least the ones that scale damage do. I was happy to see 3.5 take away stacking empowers on one spell, but admixture (for example) just basically puts it back in.

EDIT: That said, I'm not sure I'm comfortable totally removing them in a game that has psion blasters in it.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I refrained from giving the disintegrate guy sudden maximize so that they would both be using one feat.

Yeah, the Sudden feats are their own kind of brokenness by not increasing spell level.

But even without metamagic, the orb spells are over twice as good as Disintegrate if the target makes his save, and half as good (not counting the secondary effects) for levels 11-15 if the target fails. That's WITH them being affected by SR and being two levels lower.

Anybody up for doing the full calculations on this comparison?

Another comparison: for levels 7-13, they're roughly the same damage as Scorching Ray, but scaling more smoothly, ignoring SR, and adding a secondary effect. Would a metamagic feat that let you totally ignore SR for a spell level adjustment of +2 be balanced?