Orbs vs. Evocations II- with level by level data

[shmoo2]

Is the 16th level wizzard using an admixtured Explosive Cascade?

No. Since explosive cascade has a 10d6 damage cap, it isn't a good choice for this comparison. No real evocation spell (that I know of) is 4th level and has a 15d6 damage cap. The spreadsheet though pretends that one exists to make a direct comparison with orbs possible.

In other words, base damage for both the orbs and evocations is (Caster Level)*d6 with metamagic applied where applicable to both equally [empower to fill 6th level slots, maximize to fill 7th level slots, admixture to fill 8th level slots).

(I don't see why a 4th level 15d6 cap evocation doesn't exist - it would probably just have to have a small Area of Effect though- maybe 10-15' radius spread.)

 

[Slaved]

They average size Large, so its not trivial to fit 3 of them in an AofE even if they conveniently line up for the evoker.

I know it is not evocation but at levels 15+ you have to start dealing with Horrid Wilting. It is targetted but over a pretty big area and is a fortitude save plus spell resistance.

Firestorm also appears about then, or a little earlier, but it is not an arcane spell. It is evocation and hits a fairly large area as well.

 

[Victim]

I know it is not evocation but at levels 15+ you have to start dealing with Horrid Wilting. It is targetted but over a pretty big area and is a fortitude save plus spell resistance.

Firestorm also appears about then, or a little earlier, but it is not an arcane spell. It is evocation and hits a fairly large area as well.

Which is part of the problem. By high levels, it's not just conjuration's orbs that are trampling over evocation, it's necromancy and divine spells.

 

[shmoo2]

I know it is not evocation but at levels 15+ you have to start dealing with Horrid Wilting. It is targetted but over a pretty big area and is a fortitude save plus spell resistance.

Firestorm also appears about then, or a little earlier, but it is not an arcane spell. It is evocation and hits a fairly large area as well.

Switching to Horrid Wilting changes the average ratios at 15th level to 3.7 and at 16th level to 5.1!
Since Fort saves are so much better than reflex saves, it cancels out the higher save DC. Horrid Wilting does 16d6 damage/target, while the admixtured orb (or evocation) is doing 15d6*2/target. Also, SR is still hurting the non-orb user a lot.

But you are right slaved- in an encounter with 4+ opponents, at least Horrid Wilting will likely catch 'em.

 

[Slaved]

Switching to Horrid Wilting changes the average ratios at 15th level to 3.7 and at 16th level to 5.1!
Since Fort saves are so much better than reflex saves, it cancels out the higher save DC. Horrid Wilting does 16d6 damage/target, while the admixtured orb (or evocation) is doing 15d6*2/target. Also, SR is still hurting the non-orb user a lot.

But you are right slaved- in an encounter with 4+ opponents, at least Horrid Wilting will likely catch 'em.

Oh. I had thought that this was without feats as they were assumed to even out. Having one guy pick two feats while the other guy gets none plus assuming that the guy with the energy based spells always picks the best energy even though his feat is static makes the comparison a lot less helpful than I was hoping for.

I guess I was confused about the comparison.

 

[two]

wow awesome job

Just wanted to say: great job.

The numbers back up what my gut, and playing experience, have told me.

As was mentioned previously, it is not uncommon for party members to go up again monsters with a higher CR than the party level. Not unusual at all -- particularly in climactic battles.

Orbs do better as CR rises compared to Evocation; it would be fun to see the average damage vs. an opponent 2, 3, or 4 higher than the party/PC level. We know what the result will be. The orbs will have a really huge advantage.

 

[shmoo2]

Oh. I had thought that this was without feats as they were assumed to even out. Having one guy pick two feats while the other guy gets none plus assuming that the guy with the energy based spells always picks the best energy even though his feat is static makes the comparison a lot less helpful than I was hoping for.

I guess I was confused about the comparison.

Well, the thread (see title) is about comparing orbs to evocation spells.

But I see your point. Take the feats away from orb-guy though, and fire a straight orb and a straight Horrid Wilting, and the ratio at 16th level is STILL 2.59!
The 4th level orb beats the 8th level spell. Better hope all enemies are in range.

 

[Slaved]

Orbs do better as CR rises compared to Evocation; it would be fun to see the average damage vs. an opponent 2, 3, or 4 higher than the party/PC level. We know what the result will be. The orbs will have a really huge advantage.

Hellwasp swarm.

 

[Jack Simth]

No. Since explosive cascade has a 10d6 damage cap, it isn't a good choice for this comparison. No real evocation spell (that I know of) is 4th level and has a 15d6 damage cap. The spreadsheet though pretends that one exists to make a direct comparison with orbs possible.

In other words, base damage for both the orbs and evocations is (Caster Level)*d6 with metamagic applied where applicable to both equally [empower to fill 6th level slots, maximize to fill 7th level slots, admixture to fill 8th level slots).

(I don't see why a 4th level 15d6 cap evocation doesn't exist - it would probably just have to have a small Area of Effect though- maybe 10-15' radius spread.)

The Druid's Flame Strike fits the bill - but only for Druids (for everyone else - Core, anyway - it's a 5th level spell).

 

[two]

Hellwasp swarm.

Ha. True.