Orcs and Ancient Sparta

[Krieg]

Ummm ... "pigeonholing stererotypes" is pleonastic. I assume you mean "defying stereotypes" here.

Nope. Rumsfeld's comments were in direct opposition to defying stereotypes. I was purposely redundant (who in the hell actually uses pleonastic?! ).

 

[Sir Elton]

Don't forget that the Spartan economy absolutely relied on non-spartan population for every non-military function.

Spartan citizens were not allowed to participate in ANY trade outside of combat arms.

The Perioikoi were the craftsmen and merchants and were relatively well off, they were only forbidden from participating in foreign or military affairs.

The Helots were farmers and laborers that were officially the property of the goverment, think of them as serfs. So who is going to fill the roll of the Perioikoi & Helots for your Orcish Spartans?

Nothing quite like pigeonholing stereotypes to make for an interesting and innovative campaign!

Other orcs, like the Helotes were other Greeks.

 

[Sir Elton]

I think this would make an interesting campaign element. People often seem to think of Orcs as fantasy Klingons. Taking the Spartan route could be cool.

Yeah. The seedier aspects of Spartan Society flies in the face of the d20 STL as well.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Spartans used iron for their money. So no one else really wanted to trade with them - which meant they weren't "weakened" by desire for luxuries.

All Spartans ate together in public dormitories, and their bards entertained them with the rules and lore of their culture.

Spartan boys were inducted into military training just before adolescence, and it was harsh and brutal. At one point, they were forced to live in the wild, "like a werewolf", and encouraged to steal and murder slaves to survive. But if caught, they would be whipped to death in order to mentally toughen the rest.

They also had their hair done before going into battle.

 

[Krieg]

Other orcs, like the Helotes were other Greeks.

Remember that the Helots & Perioikoi were non Spartans indigineous to the islands the Spartans conquered. While it would certainly be acceptable to have other Orcs fill that roll don't forget that they were considered a different people than the Spartans. The aforementioned Goblins would also be a very good fit for the roll.

BTW will there be an Orken Thermopylae?

All Spartans ate together in public dormitories, and their bards entertained them with the rules and lore of their culture.

Spartans were required to join a Phiditia which was a sort of dinner club. They were required to eat at the club every evening & to bring a measure of food from their land to provide for the common meal. They were allowed to join whichever club the desired, although membership was decided by vote and a single member voting no would disqualify the applicant.

Certainly there were rivalries and political maneuvering between the different Phiditia.

 

[Turanil]

Personally, I am used to the stereotype that orcs = brutish and aggressive "neanderthalians". As such, Sparta looks really too much evolved for them. On the other hand, as it has already been suggested, this would be perfect for hobgoblins (who would have goblin slaves overseen by he female hobgoblins). Well, another idea I am going to borrow!

 

[Akrasia]

Think outside the box: have the Spartan be ELVES. The Helots and Perioikoi could be conquered humans and halflings.

Sparta's rival -- the democratic and intellectually dynamic Athens -- is the ORCISH polis. (Or Goblinoid polis, if Orcs are just too stupid.)

That would be cool.

 

[Gez]

Orcs are usually chaotic evil, which means that, as long as you do not have, in the whole world, a majority of orcs who are not CE, you aren't house-ruling anything. You can have a few LE tribes of orcs, even a few CG tribes of orcs, as long as the majority of tribes are CE, you're golden.

Perioikoi and Helots are roles to be filled by slaves. Human slaves are a good bet, because they allow you to have half-orc slaves, who are both smart (compared to other orcs) and strong (compared to other slaves). Some half-orc slaves could have a high station as advisors.

Another thing to remember: ever since the Spartan started their "Spartan" traditions, their population steadfastly diminished (despite turning women into baby factories). Lycurgus and others thought this eugenist policy would allow them to outperform Athens and vainquish this rival city, but the result was that Athens just had to wait a bit until the Spartans would be overwhelmed. Spartan laws are a way to fall on your own sword. So, unless orcish women are, biologically, much more fertile than human women (usually giving birth to entire litter of orclings rather than a single baby), this model is not sustainable. The tribe must have adopted this custom relatively recently (maybe after a disaster, thinking it befell them because they weren't worthy, or some similar scapegoatism).

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Orks done right would make pretty awesome Athenians.

Certainly, at least, for the Chaotic (evil) aspect and for the individuality, overlords, shouting, pride, and agression. Not so much for the intellectual character of it all.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Another thing to remember: ever since the Spartan started their "Spartan" traditions, their population steadfastly diminished (despite turning women into baby factories). Lycurgus and others thought this eugenist policy would allow them to outperform Athens and vainquish this rival city, but the result was that Athens just had to wait a bit until the Spartans would be overwhelmed. Spartan laws are a way to fall on your own sword. So, unless orcish women are, biologically, much more fertile than human women (usually giving birth to entire litter of orclings rather than a single baby), this model is not sustainable. The tribe must have adopted this custom relatively recently (maybe after a disaster, thinking it befell them because they weren't worthy, or some similar scapegoatism).

Uhm, except that Spartan wasn't overwhelmed, won the Pelopenessian war, and maintained their odd model for many generations afterwards.

Also, I don't recall hearing that Spartan women were famous for being 'baby factories' in the current sense of barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

They were famous for lustfullness, lack of virtue, and independence. Not too mention being very fit and athletic.