Orcs and Ancient Sparta

[Tonguez]

Spartan boys were inducted into military training just before adolescence, and it was harsh and brutal. At one point, they were forced to live in the wild, "like a werewolf", and encouraged to steal and murder slaves to survive. But if caught, they would be whipped to death in order to mentally toughen the rest.

This works wonderfully
Obviously the stereotype of the 'brutal savage orc' has come about because of the raiding activities of these adolescents.
Upon reaching maturity Orcs join the mainstream of society of the Phiditia whose ways are largely unknown to non-orcs (who maintain the savage stereotype)

Okay the slaves are Goblins (goblins have always been enslaved by orcs imc's)

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Also worth noting, that, when released from their native laws and communities, Spartans had a reputation for going very wild, decadent, and corrupt.

So maybe orcs are chaotic evil only when they're away from the homeland?

 

[Gez]

Uhm, except that Spartan wasn't overwhelmed, won the Pelopenessian war, and maintained their odd model for many generations afterwards.

They won because their reputation allowed them to cower many other city-states in becoming their vassals and allies without having to battle them.

As for the "many generations afterwards," they must have been short generations since Sparta retained supremacy only for 30 years after their victory (from 404 BC to 371 BC), and 30 more years after (in 339 BC), Sparta become one of the possessions of Philip II of Macedonia.

Later, Sparta got annexed by the Roman legions, and ultimately razed to the ground by Visigoths a few century later.

Today, Athens is the capital of Greece. New Sparta has a population of less than 20 000 people.

 

[kingamy]

Spartan citizens were not allowed to participate in ANY trade outside of combat arms.

Except singing, Spartan men were encouraged to sing.

If, that is, historical fiction can be trusted. All of the "real" history of Sparta I've read has focussed on names, dates, and broad details, only the fiction has focussed on day to day life.

I recommend reading Gates of Fire by Steven Pressfield. It is a historical fiction about the battle of Thermopylae, and is a wonderful read (if a bit wordy in places). I have no idea how close to realistic it is, but even so it would make for an excellent D&D culture.

kingamy

 

[Sir Elton]

Remember that the Helots & Perioikoi were non Spartans indigineous to the islands the Spartans conquered. While it would certainly be acceptable to have other Orcs fill that roll don't forget that they were considered a different people than the Spartans. The aforementioned Goblins would also be a very good fit for the roll.

BTW will there be an Orken Thermopylae?

Actually, the Helotes were Mycenaeans. The Spartans conquered Mycenae and took the entire population captive.

 

[Sir Elton]

Think outside the box: have the Spartan be ELVES. The Helots and Perioikoi could be conquered humans and halflings.

Sparta's rival -- the democratic and intellectually dynamic Athens -- is the ORCISH polis. (Or Goblinoid polis, if Orcs are just too stupid.)

That would be cool.

Yeah, right. Now how do you suppose an elf and a human are going to grow up together? Humans mature faster than elves. The human companion will die before the elf will even be considered an adult by his or her people.

 

[Akrasia]

Yeah, right. Now how do you suppose an elf and a human are going to grow up together? Humans mature faster than elves. The human companion will die before the elf will even be considered an adult by his or her people.

What are you talking about? Spartans did not raise their children with the Helots.

Who cares if your servants grow up and die faster than you do? Geez... :\

 

[Aust Diamondew]

In my campaign I based the dwarven nation on ancient sparta. Orcs aren't discipline, intilegent or paticuarly willful so IMO they praobly wouldn't model after the spartans unless you go by what some of the others have said.

 

[Sir Elton]

What are you talking about? Spartans did not raise their children with the Helots.

Who cares if your servants grow up and die faster than you do? Geez... :\

Sorry, I'm using this for a series of Forgotten Realms short stories . The stories are about the childhood of three people: a human psion, an orc ranger, and a human fighter/bard (female). I'm using the Spartan Orc tribe as background for the Orc Ranger.

 

[Big B]

Sir Elton,

Technically, the helots were *Messenians*, as in people from Messenia, which is basically the area along the western coast of the Peloponnese (just northwest of Sparta). Mycenae was a bronze-age city that had ceased to exist by the time Sparta rose to power in the classical age.

Also, I agree with others that the hobgoblins are probably the better bet as Spartan-themed, at least as far as the races are "traditionally" characterized in D&D. Of course, there's no reason you couldn't make Orcs in your campaign Lawful Evil. Alternately, you could just have one tribe/nation of Orcs that for some reason is not as chaotic in behavior as most Orcs.

If you're looking for a good idea for evil humanoid Sparta-like societies I recommend Strength and Honor: The Mighty Hobgoblins of Tellene by Kenzer Co. The Krangi (Kingdom of Norga-Krangel) are basically Spartans with an extra helping of tusks.