Orcs and Ancient Sparta

[Sir Elton]

I must have misheard then.

Also, I agree with others that the hobgoblins are probably the better bet as Spartan-themed, at least as far as the races are "traditionally" characterized in D&D. Of course, there's no reason you couldn't make Orcs in your campaign Lawful Evil. Alternately, you could just have one tribe/nation of Orcs that for some reason is not as chaotic in behavior as most Orcs.

Yes. Actually, you are illustrating a point about Campaign Browbeating. I guess it's inevitable, but when somebody is often applying their own creativity to the D&D game and publishes it, many gamers thinks he's wierd for doing that.

First of all, I can't fathom a Chaotic Evil society working the way Orc Society works in D&D. There were few truly Chaotic Evil societies in the History of the Earth. And most of them were destroyed. Athens, after it's fall, one was one of them.

Orcs, if they were truly Choatic Evil, would annhiliate each other. Adventurers can stand back and watch the bloodbath the Orcs would perpetrate on themselves. So, I needed a society that allowed Orcs to prosper and survive, and Sparta is the best example so far.

Nazi Germany is unpolitically correct, no one wants to remember how the Nazis did something. A Banana Republic is just plain silly. Sparta's society, however, was at once frightening and successful (it was also surprisingly free!).

 

[Imperialus]

They won because their reputation allowed them to cower many other city-states in becoming their vassals and allies without having to battle them.

Actually Sparta treated her allies far far better than Athens did. It's a big part of the reason that they won. It basically came down to a few key battles where Sparta's allies were there when the chips were down while Athen's allies abandoned them. It's simmilar to the third Punic war when Carthage's allies vanished while Rome's stuck it out.

If I had to call Sparta's alignment I'd say they were more than likely LN not evil. It was a brutal and violent society within but it was perfectly willing to stick up for it's allies and it treated those allies well.

It is an interesting idea modeling your world's orcs after Sparta. I'd like to see any writeup that you come up with after you're done.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

They won because their reputation allowed them to cower many other city-states in becoming their vassals and allies without having to battle them.

As for the "many generations afterwards," they must have been short generations since Sparta retained supremacy only for 30 years after their victory (from 404 BC to 371 BC), and 30 more years after (in 339 BC), Sparta become one of the possessions of Philip II of Macedonia.

Later, Sparta got annexed by the Roman legions, and ultimately razed to the ground by Visigoths a few century later.

Today, Athens is the capital of Greece. New Sparta has a population of less than 20 000 people.

A generation is traditionally counted as 20 years.

And those 60 years were years the Athenian 'system' never had.

Athens being more the one to cow opponents/allies and Sparta being seen more as the hope for Greek liberty from the Athenian oppressor. Reading some Thucydides should clear up any doubts on this point.

Sparta failed to maintain supremacy not because of any specific demographic problems so much as the Greek world expanded into larger and more robust areas, such as Thrace and Macedonia, who didn't feel as much of a compulsion to look to Sparta as an ally or threat, and new techniques in the use of the Phalanx that they couldn't easily follow.

They lost battles to Phillip and he freed the Helots, but even when the rest of Greece lay under the subjugation of Alexander they were never a conquered state and went on to win two wars against the argives.

Though small, they were among the last Greek states conquered by the Romans. So they seemed to do pretty well for themselves.

True, Athens is the capital of Greece but to make the argument that that has anything to do with the might and wisdom of the classical Athenians is sophistry. You might claim that they imparted a certain romance to the township, but the relationship between romance and sophistry is well documented.

Athens is and was in a great location for a city, that's why it was old even during the time Sparta's greatness and possessed odd and independent customs, ethnicities, and histories from the rest of Greece.

It's also why the city was able to survive the valiant but foolish pride of its classical inhabitants.

 

[Tonguez]

Orcs, if they were truly Choatic Evil, would annhiliate each other. Adventurers can stand back and watch the bloodbath the Orcs would perpetrate on themselves. So, I needed a society that allowed Orcs to prosper and survive, and Sparta is the best example so far.

IMC Orc society is strictly gender delineated. All Orcs upon reaching 9 years are forced out and form age-band mobs. It is these mobs which are CE and survive on raiding outsiders or by offering their services to BBEGs in return for shelter. Thus most non-Orcs get their impression of Orcs from these male mobs (who do spend their time killing each other)

Females Orcs (who are larger and healtheir than males) tend more towards NE and live in nomadic clans ranging over a given territory as hunter gatherers. If a all-female clan meets with a all-male mob a ritual 'Confrontation' occurs usually resulting in the death of a few males and the rape of a few females (this is how Orcs breed) afterwards the males are chased off again (and being CE can't organise themselves enough to make a stand). This practice of ritual rape is also why so many half-orcs occur.

The only male orcs allowed to linger amongst the clans and move safely amongst the mobs are the Shaman - who are male and acculturated as transvestites ...

that how I 'solved' the problem of Orc society

(the ritual rape thing was taken from a South American tribe which I learnt about in first year Anthropology)

 

[mythusmage]

IMC the kekihj tried conquering the universe. Part of this included changing everybody else to kekihj. Thanks to the assistance of the dragons they failed. (And the dragons were being so helpful too. )

But, sometimes the virus did cause changes. In one case a group of humans came down with... well, not true lycanthropy (though a different group did), but lupine DNA did get incorporated into their genome. Thus was born the orc.

Which is not how the Unicorn Orc came to be. That story is long, involved, and concerns great tragedies and triumph, plus a touch of redepmtion and sacrifice. To make a long story short, the Unicorns and their allies were changed into Ki orcs and placed on the world of Ki to live out their lives. Since their original fate was utter destruction, you can think of orc-dom as being a sort of probation.

The Unicorn Orcs themselves can be thought of as a combination of Japanese, Mongol, and Lakota. With a touch of wolf.

Unicorn Orc life is centered around the pack. The pack being led by an alpha pair and lower ranking members. In hard times only the alpha pair can breed, but in better times the lower ranking pairs can have children as well. Children are raised communally.

Above the pack is the band. The band consists of one or more packs led by a popular leader. Most often a pack leader in his own right, though sometimes a band leader has been a lone orc. One or more bands make up a tribe, one or more tribes make up a nation, and the five nations make up the confederacy known as the Unicorn Orcs.

Ki's other orc groups are not as organized as this. Most live as separate packs. A few have begun to organize into bands, and one group has become a tribe. This last under the leadership of a Hare Orc (one of the Unicorn Orc nations) exiled from Nation, Tribe, Band, and Pack.

Ki's orcs have a definite tendency to Lawful Evil if using a strict alignment scheme. If using alignment more as a guide to behavior, they are Lawful Evil at first glance, though on closer acquaintence their better qualities do come forth.

Both genders hunt and wage war. Among the Unicorn Orcs it's the males who care for the herds, while the females handle business matters. Kids are cared for and tutored by everyone. Matters religious and arcane are open to anyone who hears the call.

And that's enough on that subject. If it gave you ideas, good.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

that how I 'solved' the problem of Orc society

Pretty sweet!

Though I might also throw in some sort of system of very specialized and more civilized bands that come up with the tech Orks have.

Sort of like the Smithing and Charcoal making communities in much of barbarian and bronze age Europe. Strictly neutral and non-aggressive, if not pacifistic, and occupying a neutred place in the society with children and the handicapped given to them along with good in exchange for services and support.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

that how I 'solved' the problem of Orc society

Pretty sweet!

Though I might also throw in some sort of system of very specialized and more civilized bands that come up with the tech Orks have.

Sort of like the Smithing and Charcoal making communities in much of barbarian and bronze age Europe. Strictly neutral and non-aggressive, if not pacifistic, and occupying a neutred place in the society with children and the handicapped given to them along with good in exchange for services and support.

Ork hordes would come about from the grooming of both special bands and societies for body guard and elite force duty and identification by both the smiths and shamans of good leaders, seasons, and targets.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

cursed double post

 

[Tonguez]

Pretty sweet!
Sort of like the Smithing and Charcoal making communities in much of barbarian and bronze age Europe. Strictly neutral and non-aggressive, if not pacifistic, and occupying a neutred place in the society with children and the handicapped given to them along with good in exchange for services and support.

I like that idea and it fits in well with the notion of Shaman-Transvestites (which is common in many SE Asian and Pacific cultures). SO rather than lone Shaman we have small troops of 'charcoal Orcs' lead by Shaman. This troop is semi-relgious in function and specilises in Crafts and Healing

 

[mythusmage]

I like that idea and it fits in well with the notion of Shaman-Transvestites (which is common in many SE Asian and Pacific cultures). SO rather than lone Shaman we have small troops of 'charcoal Orcs' lead by Shaman. This troop is semi-relgious in function and specilises in Crafts and Healing

Very adaptable idea too. Every group has people who don't fit in normal society, and others who are transiting from one situation to another. Young males driven out of their birth pack, but not yet adopted into another. Old pack leaders chosing exile instead of death. Males and females with something a bit 'off' about them.

You could even get an adventure or two out of this.