Orcs in d&d vs LOTR
- Thread starter Stegger
- Start date
D&D does take a great deal of its theams and elements from Tolkien, including the names for elves and the like. However, that is not the only sourse. D&D elves seem to be a cross between the Irish legends of the deDahnn. The D&D orcs seem to be closer to the fomori from the same legends, with the orcish god Gruumsh standing in for Balor of the One Eye. It all hopelessly mismashed to the point you have to make it your own.
Klaus
First Post
Orc Genesis Myth
This is from Monster Mythology (as far as I can remember):
The high gods created each a race that best reflected their view of "ideal": Moradin created the dwarves, Corellon created the elves, Garl created the gnomes, Yondalla created the halflings, someone created the humans (they can't agree on which god created them) and Gruumsh created the orcs.
Then they divided the world among their races. Mountains went to dwarves, forests to elves, hills went to gnomes, halflings chose wandering and humans would hook up wherever they could make a living. As the orcs tell, the other gods laughed at Gruumsh, saying there was no room left for orcs. But Gruumsh hefted his spear and said: "My children have a place! There!" and he struck the mountains, creating vast canyons. "There!" and he struck the forests, creating barren wastes. "There!" and he struck the hills, creating swamps. From the orcs' point-of-view, they're always fighting to get back what was wrongly taken away from them.
Here's where Gruumsh declared war on the other gods and their races, and then Corellon struck out his eye.
Paranoid little buggers, aren't they?
This is from Monster Mythology (as far as I can remember):
The high gods created each a race that best reflected their view of "ideal": Moradin created the dwarves, Corellon created the elves, Garl created the gnomes, Yondalla created the halflings, someone created the humans (they can't agree on which god created them) and Gruumsh created the orcs.
Then they divided the world among their races. Mountains went to dwarves, forests to elves, hills went to gnomes, halflings chose wandering and humans would hook up wherever they could make a living. As the orcs tell, the other gods laughed at Gruumsh, saying there was no room left for orcs. But Gruumsh hefted his spear and said: "My children have a place! There!" and he struck the mountains, creating vast canyons. "There!" and he struck the forests, creating barren wastes. "There!" and he struck the hills, creating swamps. From the orcs' point-of-view, they're always fighting to get back what was wrongly taken away from them.
Here's where Gruumsh declared war on the other gods and their races, and then Corellon struck out his eye.
Paranoid little buggers, aren't they?
A2Z
Adventurer
It's true what The Grumpy Celt said. The background of any race or monster in D&D is a mish mash of historical mythology and fictional literature. It would be impossible to pin point exaclty were any one idea came from. The name orc was most likely drawn from Tolkien, however I don't think they've ever been officially described as corrupted elves.
I never realised that Grumsh had such a prominent parallel with Celtic mythology. That's pretty cool! I'm going to have to go over some of my old D&D deities and see if I can find any more.
I never realised that Grumsh had such a prominent parallel with Celtic mythology. That's pretty cool! I'm going to have to go over some of my old D&D deities and see if I can find any more.
Rashak Mani
First Post
I myself changed the basic orc in D&D to something more akin to Tolkiens orcs. D&D Orcs are too pathetic to be true... +2 str and no Con bonus ?! 4hp average ? Thats barely better Goblins...
LOTR Orcs had phenomenal constitution...remember they left Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli way behind taking hobbits with them. They are more intelligent as well. Some speak common.
My orcs are 2HD creatures... more lawful as well... Most have +2 Str +2 Con (Archer types have +1 Dx) They all have endurance feat and one extra Fighter type feat. This is the basic warrior. Most of the time a higher lvl orc for every 5-7 is present. Even a 8th lvl warlord orc has been faced by my players.
LOTR Orcs had phenomenal constitution...remember they left Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli way behind taking hobbits with them. They are more intelligent as well. Some speak common.
My orcs are 2HD creatures... more lawful as well... Most have +2 Str +2 Con (Archer types have +1 Dx) They all have endurance feat and one extra Fighter type feat. This is the basic warrior. Most of the time a higher lvl orc for every 5-7 is present. Even a 8th lvl warlord orc has been faced by my players.
Squire James
Explorer
The "fighting Uruk-hai" appear to be some elite force of orc... not the usual model at all! My opinion is that the orcs as a race don't have a Con bonus (as the standard MM entry says), but every orc in the Uruk-hai was hand-picked for phenomenal physical ability. Those particular orcs probably averaged 14 in their physical stats before racial mods, and most were probably level 3 fighters or better. The ones that weren't, well, they're mostly taking a dirt-nap back there at the river...
hellbender
First Post
I tend to agree with people saying make orcs the way you want to. Myself, in my homebrew, I use orcs based on the Warhammer game (and orks from 40k for my science-fiction version of dnd). Warhammer is not that far off from Tolkien is some respects, and as far as orcs go, there are even black orcs (another term for uruk-hai in the Lord of the Rings). I rather prefer the idea of orcs and goblins fighting in armies together rather than fighting each other and everyone else, but that is just me.
hellbender
hellbender
Jhamin
First Post
From what I understand, and Gary correct me if I'm wrong, is that in the early days of D&D there was no monster manual and there was no unified theory of where things came from.
Gary had a game to run and filled his maps with whatever monsters he could come up with while he sat down to write the adventure. There were a lot of "it seemed cool at the time" ideas. Orcs were probably taken from Tolkien at first, then when they needed an orc Cleric somebody invented Grumush.
To ascribe grand-plan origins is probably reading to much into the process.
Gary had a game to run and filled his maps with whatever monsters he could come up with while he sat down to write the adventure. There were a lot of "it seemed cool at the time" ideas. Orcs were probably taken from Tolkien at first, then when they needed an orc Cleric somebody invented Grumush.
To ascribe grand-plan origins is probably reading to much into the process.
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