Orcs preview

[Fanaelialae]

3) I have mixed feelings about the whole idea of the general population being high level minions. I see the point, and you can find similar ideas in 1st edition (Hickman does this in I3: Pyramid, for example). But I presume that average human townguards/elf warriors/drawf warriors are now level 7-10 minions as well? Are the days of hiring men-at-arms to adventure with you at low levels back? Sure, they are 'red shirts' but they are red-shirts that have very high 'to hit' scores. I wouldn't mind having a half dozen level 9 human minion archers at my back, especially when it came to killing (1 hp) orc soldiers.

4) I think if I were to do 4e, one of my first house rules would be along the lines of 'Minions get 1 hp per level'. It won't matter too much in terms of ability to survive attacks from PC's of comparable level (who will still probably be dropping minions in one hit most of the time), but it does reduce some of the glass jaw silliness of having 1 hp and might reduce the temptation to metagame that knowledge.

6) Never before in the games history have 1st level characters been so far beneath the assumed average power level of other beings in the world. Alot of people touted 4e as making the players heroes from 1st level. Quite the contrary, we see that 1st level PC's are extremely subpar individuals in terms of just about everything. There are whole armies of 9th level characters out there with base to hit scores well above 1st level PC levels. Heroic tier, despite its name and high amount of flash, is really mundane tier in disguise. That's not all bad but it is wierd. Not only are PC's not nearly as skilled in a fight as your average orc minion, but their ability scores are far below those of say average orc chieftains (who look like they start with 3 18's plus several other good scores), and the will never ever be 'elite' in the same fashion that an 'elite' NPC will be. That 8th level Chieftain for example has hp comparable to a 20th level PC. A party of 5 elite NPC's - and it seems the world will never lack for these - is pretty much always going to be more capable in a fight than the PC party is. Never before in the games history has there been quite the oppurtunity for PC's to actually let the cool uber-NPC do the heavy lifting, nor has the game quite as endorsed the concept of uber-PC since the days of the 2nd edition rules for 'Chosen of Mystra'.

4. It's your game, but I thought I'd point out that in real life (yes, I am aware that D&D is a fantasy game with magic and the like) it only takes a single, significant wound to put someone on the ground or kill them. As I see it, minions are just unlucky (or, non-minions are lucky, take your pick). IMO.

6. My DM was inspired enough by the points of light concept that he took it and adapted it for his 3.5 game. The idea is that there are high level NPCs out there, but they are few in number and virtually all dedicated to town defense. The PCs are road wardens comissioned by the king to enforce his justice outside town walls. I expect that this will likely be the idea behind PoL. Sure, you might have half a dozen level 10 guards in a given town, but they're the town's only real defense against the threats outside. If they were to hunt down the orc band that's been attacking merchants, the goblins would swoop in and pillage the town. What good is ridding the land of a single orc band if the town is destroyed? That's where the adventurers come in. 4e doesn't need endless mobs of high level (human) NPCs. It just needs a few effective enough to prevent towns from being overrun by nearby threats.

As a side note, the campaign has been a lot of fun so far, and our PCs have yet to feel "unspecial".

 

[drjones]

6) Never before in the games history have 1st level characters been so far beneath the assumed average power level of other beings in the world. Alot of people touted 4e as making the players heroes from 1st level. Quite the contrary, we see that 1st level PC's are extremely subpar individuals in terms of just about everything. There are whole armies of 9th level characters out there with base to hit scores well above 1st level PC levels. Heroic tier, despite its name and high amount of flash, is really mundane tier in disguise. That's not all bad but it is wierd. Not only are PC's not nearly as skilled in a fight as your average orc minion, but their ability scores are far below those of say average orc chieftains (who look like they start with 3 18's plus several other good scores), and the will never ever be 'elite' in the same fashion that an 'elite' NPC will be. That 8th level Chieftain for example has hp comparable to a 20th level PC. A party of 5 elite NPC's - and it seems the world will never lack for these - is pretty much always going to be more capable in a fight than the PC party is. Never before in the games history has there been quite the oppurtunity for PC's to actually let the cool uber-NPC do the heavy lifting, nor has the game quite as endorsed the concept of uber-PC since the days of the 2nd edition rules for 'Chosen of Mystra'.

Are not all leveled rpgs this way? If there are not a bunch of higher level bad guys out there somewhere (or lower in the dungeon if you go back far enough in dnd history) then who are you going to fight when you level up? The same level 1 scrubs?

That is the magic of every RPG ever made, no matter how powerful you get there will still be enemies who challenge you and, surprise surprise those are the enemies you meet! This is also why games like WoW can get soul-deadeningly boring once you realize that if you can kill a level 1 boar in 5 hits at level 1 then killing a level 50 boar at level 50 in 5 hits is exactly the same.

So yeah I really don't think tis is a negative at all unless you are trying to make a simulation world where no PCs level up, in which case you don't need the Monster Manual or any other book, just start writing.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But I presume that average human townguards/elf warriors/drawf warriors are now level 7-10 minions as well? Are the days of hiring men-at-arms to adventure with you at low levels back? Sure, they are 'red shirts' but they are red-shirts that have very high 'to hit' scores. I wouldn't mind having a half dozen level 9 human minion archers at my back, especially when it came to killing (1 hp) orc soldiers.

I kind of like that, actually. Definately makes it cool for a PC warlord with his tribe of minions that level alongside of him and can help him face down armies of other nations.

I think if I were to do 4e, one of my first house rules would be along the lines of 'Minions get 1 hp per level'. It won't matter too much in terms of ability to survive attacks from PC's of comparable level (who will still probably be dropping minions in one hit most of the time), but it does reduce some of the glass jaw silliness of having 1 hp and might reduce the temptation to metagame that knowledge.

Yeah, I'm not sure about the metagame. I might just ignore hps entirely for minions. "One hit kills them, but other damaging effects may or may not."

I'm not sure how I feel about the "no misses damage them" thing. Kinda seems like it might blow away my disbelief when I damage the BBEG with a whiff, but not his 300 spawnlings.

Never before in the games history have 1st level characters been so far beneath the assumed average power level of other beings in the world.

This is interesting, too. "Heroic" obviously doesn't mean "I have bigger numbers than you." I'm really looking forward to how they capture that.

 

[Waneta]

I don't know if this has been pointed out elsewhere, but its looking to me like the three tiers will be differentiated by the monsters you face as well as the abilities of the PC's. Heroic is looking like the humanoid tier, where you often fight are kobolds, gnolls, orcs. They're all levels one to ten. Paragon is more the extraordinary tier, where your fighting things of this world but more fantastical, and then Epic is where you fight things like devils and demons. That seems pretty nifty to me.

 

[Scribble]

this line:

"The orc raider hurls handaxes until it runs out of axes or until
its enemies close to melee, at which point it draws its greataxe."

sounds kind of silly to me... Makes me vizualize an orc with a huge sack full of hand axes...

Hey what's in the bag??? ohhh another hand axe! hah! Wait this is difefrent it's- oooooh just kidding a hand axe! hah!

I know thats not what they mean... but still.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.

Orc Raider Level 1 Skirmisher
Medium natural humanoid XP Unknown
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +1; low-light vision
HP Unknown; Bloodied Unknown; see also warrior’s surge
AC 15; Fortitude 13, Refl ex 12, Will 10
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
m Greataxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+6 vs. AC; 1d12 + 2 damage (crit 1d12 + 14).
R Handaxe (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
Ranged 5/10; +5 vs. AC; 1d6 + 2 damage; see also killer’s eye.
M Warrior’s Surge (standard, usable only while bloodied; encounter)
✦ Healing, Weapon
The orc raider makes a melee basic attack and regains 11 hit
points.
Killer’s Eye
When making a ranged attack, the orc raider ignores cover and
concealment (but not total concealment) if the target is within 5
squares of it.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Skills Endurance +8, Intimidate +5
Str 17 (+4) Dex 15 (+3) Wis 10 (+1)
Con 14 (+3) Int 8 (+0) Cha 9 (+0)
Equipment leather armor, greataxe, 4 handaxes

And there you go, a first level orc as per the rules for customizing monsters. Remember, the name of the game for the MM and DMG is usability. Its better to have a base that you can scale then either a) having too many stat blocks, or b) making the DM have to make up their own.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

this line:

"The orc raider hurls handaxes until it runs out of axes or until
its enemies close to melee, at which point it draws its greataxe."

sounds kind of silly to me... Makes me vizualize an orc with a huge sack full of hand axes...

It clearly says they have 4 handaxes at the bottom of their stat-block.

 

[frankthedm]

They do, this combo only works if the 10 hit points from the attack from the Death Strike aura bumps him to positive because his Wounded Retaliation is a reaction so it happens after the triggering effect. So drive him into the negative enough and the 10 hit points wont be enough to bring him to positive so the second attack never occurs due to death.

Wait, full stop. All healing effects ignore negative hit points and start healing you from zero automatically. So they are unkillable against bloodied melee opponents because the healing from Blood for Blood triggering off the Death Strike happens after being driven to below zero which the healing ignores the negative hit point penalty and starts healing from zero. Hell the bloodied opponent doesn't even need to be the one delivering the killing blow.

So yes a bloodrager is unkillable as long as he is in the aura and has a bloodied enemy in melee range, assuming he hits with his Death Strike attack.

So the 'can take infinite damage' frenzied berserker is basically still around, just not in the hands of PCs...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It clearly says they have 4 handaxes at the bottom of their stat-block.

That doesn't remove the possibility of the Orcs carrying them in a huge sack, right? For sufficient small variants of huge, 4 Handaxes would indeed fill it.

 

[Sojorn]

And there you go, a first level orc as per the rules for customizing monsters. Remember, the name of the game for the MM and DMG is usability. Its better to have a base that you can scale then either a) having too many stat blocks, or b) making the DM have to make up their own.

Skirmishers lose 8 HP per level (if the templates are to be believed).

So the level 1 orc raider has 30 HP, 15 bloodied and regains 7 on his warrior's surge (if you want to go for completeness on the modifying. Leaving it at 11 wouldn't hurt much).

XP is 100.