Orcs preview

[Mort_Q]

It just makes it easier on the DM!

Make them roll the damage! The players will never know that they just killed a minion and not just any other low level critter unless you tell them.

The players will never feel robbed of their precious half-damage on a miss unless you're stupid enough to you tell them!

It's all about ease for the DM and the appearance of power for the PC!

You don't need to use minions in your game if you don't want to. I think they're a great idea.

 

[Celebrim]

These are all wonderful reasons to reward missing.

Minions, as written, jack with this. They suck all the FUN out of missing, because suddenly, nothing happens to them. They are immune!

That's lame. Especially for a critter whose entire purpose is to die horribly, that's REALLY lame. I can just imagine the cries out outrage around the table as I tell the PC's "I'm sorry, but while your uber-fireball, which you can only release once per day, was powerful enough to slightly injure that ancient wyrm over there, this orc underling went "owie" and continued on his way."

Yes. I've been thinking about that as well. Earlier I said that one of my first rule changes if adopting 4e would be to give minions ~1 hp per level. One of the reasons I would like to do this is that it would allow me to drop the kludge fix that missing a minion does no damage to it. Another reason is that I then would not have to be careful to avoid silly 'minion exterminators'. For example, I could have minion stone giants without having to worry about them being dropped by rays of frost or single arrows or pokes from a commoner's pitchfork, and without having to worry about introducing effects that did single points of damage over wide areas.

I think that at some point in the games evolution, minions probably did have ~1 hp per level. But this sometimes slowed the game down because a minion luckily survived a blow rather than being dropped and then you had to track thier hit points. So they decided to give all minions 1 hp. But this made minions too weak with respect to reliable powers so they added in a kludge to try to fix it.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

I disagree with your premise, but I fully endorse the popularization of 'plazebo'.

Carry on.

Is that like the dreaded gazebo only not really? Maybe it's the "you think it's a gazebo, so you treat it like a gazebo" gazebo? Or is it the substitute for a gazebo that you treat for all intents and purposes like a gazebo and see how the PCs react to it. If they react to it as they would to a real gazebo then we have the plazebo effect in which a fake gazebo is exactly as effective as a real gazebo in evoking player reactions.

 

[frankthedm]

Unless commoners aren't push overs as they shouldn't be. Peasants from old would destroy any of us in one on one combat. They worked so hard they kept in good shape, almost entirely.

You might want to check out "In the Name of the King: A Dungeon Siege tale". It ain't a great movie, but it does have a decent scene of some commoners whupping some orcs.

 

[Iron Sky]

Is that like the dreaded gazebo only not really? Maybe it's the "you think it's a gazebo, so you treat it like a gazebo" gazebo? Or is it the substitute for a gazebo that you treat for all intents and purposes like a gazebo and see how the PCs react to it. If they react to it as they would to a real gazebo then we have the plazebo effect in which a fake gazebo is exactly as effective as a real gazebo in evoking player reactions.

Awesome. Sadly, the first time I've laughed that I can remember in a couple days.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Make them roll the damage! The players will never know that they just killed a minion and not just any other low level critter unless you tell them.

The players will never feel robbed of their precious half-damage on a miss unless you're stupid enough to you tell them!

Pfft. I save my deception and machinations for when it really matters. Minions are supposed to save me energy, not make me think harder.

It's all about ease for the DM and the appearance of power for the PC!

Right, except "no damage on a miss" jacks with the last half of that. I'm more than willing to just not reward them for enemies that they didn't really kill in order to preserve the original intent behind the minion.

You don't need to use minions in your game if you don't want to. I think they're a great idea.

I think we all like the idea of minions, some of us just have some specific issues with how parts of them work. For me, "no damage on a miss" erodes the appearance PC power too much and makes them not fun. I'd rather change the rule to something fun and keep using minions than to toss out the baby, the bathwater, and the mistress.

I think that at some point in the games evolution, minions probably did have ~1 hp per level. But this sometimes slowed the game down because a minion luckily survived a blow rather than being dropped and then you had to track thier hit points. So they decided to give all minions 1 hp. But this made minions too weak with respect to reliable powers so they added in a kludge to try to fix it.

Not personally a fan of giving minions "actual hp," because it's a pain in my crack to have to worry about nickel-and-diming the little buggers.

using a half damage daily on a minion 20 levels higher than you to kill it is a bit silly.

Yeah...but I gotta imagine any situation where I'd actually have PC's facing a minion 20 levels higher would ALREADY be rediculously silly.

I mean, I'd change it to a "full version" behind the screens at the least.

 

[Celebrim]

Missed minions earn no XP, and if possible are replaced as reinforcements, does seem a pretty decent house rule for dodging complications with that rule.

Doesn't work. Suppose the PC blows there big daily power to try to kill the horde of 12 minions. They miss. Normally the miss might do 2d6+Int power which would be very effective even if the horde had 5, 10 or 15 odd hit points each, but the minions with thier 1 hit point are immune. Killing them all and then resurrecting them as reinforcements doesn't deal with the real problem, which is the PC has blown thier big daily area of effect attack and been less effective against the minions than they would have been against a powerful foe.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

I like it, though I'd suspect 1d12 might be just too much damage to be the weapon of a level one foe.

Say, what would the minions look like at level 1?

Orc Drudge Level 1 Minion
Medium natural humanoid XP Unknown
Initiative +0 Senses Perception +0; low-light vision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 13; Fortitude 12, Refl ex 9, Will 9
Speed 6 (8 while charging)
m Club (standard; at-will) ✦ Weapon
+6 vs. AC; 3 damage.
Alignment Chaotic evil Languages Common, Giant
Str 16 (+3) Dex 10 (+0) Wis 10 (+0)
Con 14 (+2) Int 8 (–1) Cha 9 (–1)
Equipment hide armor, club

 

[Mort_Q]

Right, except "no damage on a miss" jacks with the last half of that.

Only if you let it.

I'm obviously not much of a writer.

DM: 3 orcs break from the cover of the crates and move here, here, and here. These two have hide armour and are armed with clubs, this one looks tougher, and has leather armour and shield, and is weilding a battle axe. He looks around and locks eyes with you (pointing at the player with the wizard PC)... he doesn't seem to like casters.

Player: So, if I cast Fireball centered on this square, I can get both the axe dude and one of the clubs. That's what I do.

DM: Roll... INT vs Reflex, and then damage.

Player: Ok... club first... I get with bonuses 16, and for the axe 19. Damage is... X

DM: The fireball blooms into existence frying the two orcs caught in the blast. The one with club is down, and his club smolders briefly. The other orc you can see, managed to absorb most of the blast with his shield, but you singed his dreads, and he's looking meaner than ever. It's his turn... he charges you...




Heck, if there's a Cheiftain in the orc party, the minion can still get an extra attack in when you kill it. Fun fun fun.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Killing them all and then resurrecting them as reinforcements doesn't deal with the real problem, which is the PC has blown thier big daily area of effect attack and been less effective against the minions than they would have been against a powerful foe.

I don't see that as the real problem. I see the real problem being that players aren't given the sense of power that they should have against minions.

Killin' 'em all and getting the XP back to stick something else in there largely fixes that for me.

I'm obviously not much of a writer.

Minions are supposed to save me effort. I really don't want to bother with having to describe something that binary as anything other than "splat" and "nosplat." I'll save my verbosity for the solo monster at the end, kthnx.