Orcs preview

pawsplay said:
I'm just rebutting the ill-advised appeal to my common sense. No, it does not make any sense to me for a few orcs to come crawling out of a fireball. It should kill anyone who isn't a member of the actor's guild.

So when non minion orcs come crawling out of a fireball it's realistic, but when minion orcs come crawling out of one it's unrealistic. Right........

Or perhaps your saying that everyone should die from a fireball regardless of their level or hit points. The spell text could just say "kills everyone".
 

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It seems that if you can't accept a 9th level minion having 1HP, it's because you can't accept HP as a totally subjective, plot-based-not-endurance-based value, and in that case, there's really nothing to be done. One of the basic assumptions of 4E bothers you, and 1HP minions are just a symptom of that assumption. If you don't like that assumption, you're not going to like anything that comes from it. There's nothing wrong with not liking that assumption, but if you don't like it 4E D&D will sadly and probably not be the game for you.
 

I haven't gone back to read the last 18 pages yet, but I just tried out the orcs scaled down to level one, against some PCs I had made up based on what info is available: a half-elf Warlock, an Elf Warlord, a Dragonborn Rogue, and a Halfling Fighter. I decided that it would be very boring to just use minions, so I scaled down an Eye of Grunnish as well. So it was 12 Drudges and one Eye against 4 PCs. I kept it simple, the groups see each other across a large field and leap to the attack.

I caught a few glimpses of the discussion currently taking place, so I'll agree that minions are best used to supplement a leader character. Without the Eye, this would have been much more one-sided. And frankly, perhaps even boring after the first couple rounds.

It was an interesting encounter. As I was doing everything myself and it was my first full-scale test of pre-release 4e rules, it probably took longer than it should. They started about 30 squares apart, and initially there was a lot of charging action taking place. The Eye held back and let the minions form a defensive line about four or five squares ahead of him. (The three melee PCs won highest initiatives, so they had closed most of the distance initially.)

I thought about the Eye's Death Strike ability for a little bit, because it says orcs in range get an extra attack when reduced to zero hit points, but minions don't exactly go to zero HP, they just die. So I wasn't really sure.... I decided to let them get in a final swipe or swing wildly at the PCs as they went down through the Death Strike ability, anyway, as that seemed to be the intent. This is probably where half of the damage the PCs took came from. And they were only hit because the Eye of Grunnish was using the Eye of Wrath power to reduce the PC's AC.

However, with the Halfling Fighter, I eventually realized I could avoid all of those Death Strikes when she took someone down. Tide of Iron lets you push someone away with your shield after you hit them, so I let her stab an orc, and then kick and shove with her shield to push them off her blade and away from the PC's front line, so they weren't in range to retaliate before dying.

Having come up against the orcs and established a front line, however, the Eye was able to use the Chaos Hammer area of attack against two of the three melee characters. The minions were mostly just serving to distract the melee PCs and keep them from going directly after the real threat, and provided him with a defensive line. They slowed down the PCs and tried to herd them into positions where the Eye could take advantage. While minions can be used alone, I wouldn't. They seem to be best used as movable, destructible obstacles that can cause a little damage.

For the Warlock, however, the minions weren't so much obstacles as stepping stones. This was my first actual tactic in the encounter, and one of my favorites. While his melee friends charged into battle, he decided he was going after what appeared to be the leader. He would move up, mark the nearest minion, kill that minion, and get the Fey Pact's teleport to move ever closer to the Eye of Grunnish. Move-Curse-Attack-Teleport. Move-Curse-Attack-Teleport. He did that a couple of times (as the groups started 30 squares apart) and finally got in range, but got the Eye's attention. I think if actual players had been doing this, the warlock would have had the most fun initially.

So, the lesson here is that minions are almost like terrain features. Use them as damaging obstacles or walls to protect the real threat, or as objects for the PCs to play off of by using their abilities and keep things interesting. But don't use them alone if you want an interesting encounter.

All told, one character nearly got bloodied, had to burn a healing surge during the fight with help from the Warlord's Inspiring Word, and they all could have stood to use one by the time it was over, so one healing surge per character was effectively spent. Other than that, no expendable resources were used up. It seemed a little challenging at first because of sheer numbers, and then when it was down to just the PCs and the Eye I was worried they wouldn't do enough damage to him to kill him before he got to use the Warrior's Surge to keep healing himself, but other than that the outcome was never really in doubt. The encounter probably would have entertained and engaged actual players, but wouldn't cause them to break much of a sweat. Of course, I was a little slow on the uptake on some possible strategies (like the fighter using Tide of Iron to avoid the retaliatory strikes from the minions allowed by the Eye's Death Strike ability) because I was trying to run all the characters myself. Actual players, focused only on their own character sheets, probably would have made things slightly easier for their PCs.

Mostly what I took away from it was a general sense of 4e, and that minions aren't something to use alone, unless you want a dry and predictable battle, but they can be useful to stall PCs so that the true threats to them have time to act.

Don't know if that adds anything to the discussion or not. (I guess I'll have to go back and see.)

Edit: In reference to whether it's worth it to scale or not, and pitting level one PCs against higher level minions. My strong opinion: Yes, scale them down. It's not about how easy it is for the PCs to take down minions. It's about how easy it would have been for the minions to have killed at least one PC in a tide of orcs, if their attack bonuses and damage hadn't been reduced by scaling. They aren't any easier or harder to kill depending on level, I'd imagine. But they can hurt a lot before you're able to take them all down. The first character to gain initiative charged right at the orcs, and got hit four times in the first round (of actual fighting, after distance was closed) because the Eye reduced his AC and then the minions started whacking on him. If the minions hadn't been scaled, it could have eventually turned ugly in terms of damage.

Again, think of them as damaging, destructible terrain features. Like a wall of thorns that moves around and grunts.
 
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Cryptos said:
I thought about the Eye's Death Strike ability for a little bit, because it says orcs in range get an extra attack when reduced to zero hit points, but minions don't exactly go to zero HP, they just die. So I wasn't really sure.... I decided to let them get in a final swipe or swing wildly at the PCs as they went down through the Death Strike ability, anyway, as that seemed to be the intent. This is probably where half of the damage the PCs took came from. And they were only hit because the Eye of Grunnish was using the Eye of Wrath power to reduce the PC's AC.

However, with the Halfling Fighter, I eventually realized I could avoid all of those Death Strikes when she took someone down. Tide of Iron lets you push someone away with your shield after you hit them, so I let her stab an orc, and then kick and shove with her shield to push them off her blade and away from the PC's front line, so they weren't in range to retaliate before dying.

Minions benefit from Death Strike since they have at least 1 hp to lose. Also, Tide of Iron wouldn't normally have prevented Death Strike from occuring since the damage is applied BEFORE the push and shift effect. Basically it would be attack, damage, Death Strike, then shift (there would be no need to push since the minion would be dead) in that order.
 
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raven_dark64 said:
Minions benefit from Death Strike since they have at least 1 hp to lose. Also, Tide of Iron wouldn't normally have prevented Death Strike from occuring since the damage is applied BEFORE the push and shift effect. Basically it would be attack, damage, Death Strike, then shift (there would be no need to push since the minion would be dead) in that order.

When I decided on that, I was reading the Tide of Iron ability as one continuous and fluid motion, but I can see your argument for it based on the timing as the orcs attack when reduced to 0HP, and they are reduced to 0HP at the moment the attack is made. But I liked the visual of this little halfling warrior chick stabbing orcs and then shoving them off her blade and away from her where they collapse in heap, so I'd probably allow it if a PC came up with it... at least a few times, just for adding some RP to the action.
 

Cryptos said:
When I decided on that, I was reading the Tide of Iron ability as one continuous and fluid motion, but I can see your argument for it based on the timing as the orcs attack when reduced to 0HP, and they are reduced to 0HP at the moment the attack is made. But I liked the visual of this little halfling warrior chick stabbing orcs and then shoving them off her blade and away from her where they collapse in heap, so I'd probably allow it if a PC came up with it... at least a few times, just for adding some RP to the action.

And as many people apparently fail to see, this is exactly what DM's are for. Playing exactly within the rules all the time gets exceedingly tiresome. Probably because all your players have to do is learn to read a set of not-particularly complicated rules to be the master of all at their disposal. If my player wanted to argue that his shield strike bashed the minion back in one fluid motion before it could strike back with it's death blow, I'd probably react favorably to it at least once, and perhaps require a roll afterwards. But hey, who needs to encourage inventive thinking?

I don't play D&D to worry about MtG-style stack resolution. I play it for the roleplaying and the crazy situations my players can create.

I'm sure other people will disagree, and this is by no means an attack on any specific person, but rather a view I've developed from the attitude of many forum-goers.

[Edited for stupid spelling mistake. There may be more, but it's late]
 

pawsplay said:
How about a gasline explosion? Those tend to kill people very reliably.
Hmm. Interesting idea, but that totally does not match the mechanics of fireballs. They don't kill everyone. Never have. So they can't be like a gasline explosion. (Assuming that gasline explosion are in fact always 100 % lethal, which might be true. I certainly don#t want to find out myself...)
 

Because Fireballs in D&D (or basically anything in D&D) always matched anything close to any sort of real life physics. I'm pretty sure that being near the spot a giant orb of explosive death occurs is always more dangerous than being on the absolute outskirts, but D&D never modeled that.

We have no idea the amount of heat involved in a Fireball spell. Why should a human who has successfully killed a dragon be able to survive in a 1,000+ celsius environment? I'm pretty sure that would instantly vaporize any part of you if you didn't leave the immediate area, and D&D never modeled a reflex save as immediately relocating outside of the AoE effect.

Was that not a dealbreaker?

This argument is absurd. D&D has never remotely modeled realism in any sense.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Hmm. Interesting idea, but that totally does not match the mechanics of fireballs. They don't kill everyone. Never have. So they can't be like a gasline explosion. (Assuming that gasline explosion are in fact always 100 % lethal, which might be true. I certainly don#t want to find out myself...)
Also: Gasline explosions produce pressure. A fireball is nothing like an explosion, because it only deals fire damage. It's more like a firecracker filled with thermite - low pressure, but very high heat - though it burns out quickly (and doesn't stick, like napalm). Though I dunno how to model the fact, that they don't put everything on fire.

Perhaps a fireball is more like a microwave with flashy CGI.

Cheers, LT.
 

Cryptos said:
But I liked the visual of this little halfling warrior chick stabbing orcs and then shoving them off her blade and away from her where they collapse in heap, so I'd probably allow it if a PC came up with it... at least a few times, just for adding some RP to the action.


I have a non-stack resolution problem with it. (I'm just supporting the alternate view with RP. YMMV) Tide of iron is one continuous motion in my head. It is pushing forward with your shield while attacking the enemy. Bull rush with weapon damage. You shift AS you attack, staying adjacent to the enemy, so whenever the timing of the kill, the orc gets that last swing. The orc isn't dead until they get that swing, think of it like adrenaline, making these guys super annoying minions to clean up. Allowing a fight level 1 at-will power to wipe out half the coolness of the Eye of Gruumsh is sucking the flavor out of the orc. Again, YMMV.
:area:
 

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