ORCUS! EXCLUSIVE! ESCAPIST!

The Escapist has an awesome preview of Orcus himself! And by preview, I mean the stats -- along with some background features for Out of the Abyss. He's a CR 26 monster, wielding his famous wand. Also interesting his the quote from Chris Perkins, who clarified that the PCs would not fight him directly, but that "Fortunately, Out of the Abyss gives characters the chance to amass a small army and also turn the demon lords against one another, thus weakening them. There are also a couple other ways to banish the demon lords back to the Abyss, which is the party's ultimate goal."

For more, click on either of the images below! For tons more Out of the Abyss coverage, click here! It comes out September 15th (or the 4th in preferred stores - that's next Friday!)

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[steeldragons]

Resistance doesn't work that way. It's half damage received, it doesn't miraculously change you into taking no damage. You need evasion for that.

Yeah. I double checked and edited that out. Still, you're not taking him out with a few fireballs or ice storms.

The only thing that makes him even remotely noteworthy as an opponent is that he can summon liches and other nasty undead. His army of minions are far more threatening than the big guy himself, hell a single lich is far more deadly than this chump. It recharges up to 8th level spell slots with its legendary action... he just tail slaps you...

Well, that tail slap (that he's +17 to hit with) is dealing 39 HP (or significantly more if you roll your damage instead of just using static averages)...up to 3 times before his next turn.

Or, uses his legendary actions to throw up his "creeping death" zone in a 10' radius around him and throw in a chill touch (his three LgA) to any fool trying to melee him for 32 necrotic damage. ..or use that to throw up anywhere in his 100' range (get as many folks as possible in the 20' diameter) and then hit them all for double necrotic damage with effects from his wand.

AND he gets 2 Wand attacks (that he's +19 to hit with) on his turn. That's 34 damage from wand strikes (and I'd say he can melee attack and use one of the wand's magic powers as his second, or use two wand magic powers). And if he has his creeping death in place, that's 24 weapon damage and 26 necrotic.

He's no slouch in the damage department. I am confident, played intelligently and creatively (as he should be), he should present quite the challenge (with or without liches at his beckoning)

 

[CapnZapp]

He should probably have double HP.

Like most critters in this edition.

 

[Mirtek]

A single Paladin smite 2d6+15+6d8[..,] To hit: +6+5+1 = +12 hits him on an 8, Vengance pally has advantage on all attacks from enmity so effectively hits him on a 3.

Well, the +15 inclused HWM doesn't it? In this case it's only +7 to hit, so a pretty good chance of at least one attack missing even with advantage

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yeah. I double checked and edited that out. Still, you're not taking him out with a few fireballs or ice storms.



Well, that tail slap (that he's +17 to hit with) is dealing 39 HP (or significantly more if you roll your damage instead of just using static averages)...up to 3 times before his next turn.

Or, uses his legendary actions to throw up his "creeping death" zone in a 10' radius around him and throw in a chill touch (his three LgA) to any fool trying to melee him for 32 necrotic damage. ..or use that to throw up anywhere in his 100' range (get as many folks as possible in the 20' diameter) and then hit them all for double necrotic damage with effects from his wand.

AND he gets 2 Wand attacks (that he's +19 to hit with) on his turn. That's 34 damage from wand strikes (and I'd say he can melee attack and use one of the wand's magic powers as his second, or use two wand magic powers). And if he has his creeping death in place, that's 24 weapon damage and 26 necrotic.

He's no slouch in the damage department. I am confident, played intelligently and creatively (as he should be), he should present quite the challenge (with or without liches at his beckoning)

Disclaimer: I am not an optimizer. That has zero appeal to me. But that said, even after just a cursory glance without even worrying about what ability does the most DPR, all you have to do is have his wave of undead harass and keep the party at distance while Orcus kills them automatically with power word kill. there's no reason why Orcus wouldn't have a contingent of undead with him in a hostile area, especially since they are permanent once summoned. And there's no reason why Orcus would ever get within melee because he'd have a wall of undead between him and the PCs until Orcus wanted to be in melee, at which point he'd tail slap you under 100 hp (if his minions didn't do that already) and then just outright kill you.

Of course, that would mean that these people saying Orcus is a chump because of paladin/fighter abilities (melee attacks) would then be saying how these same characters are nerfed because they are useless at range and it's not fair

 

[steeldragons]

Oh, same here! lol. Just figured the best way to refute the optimizer/numbers folks was to throw some numbers at them since they look at it as an equational foregone conclusion.

 

[charcoalninja]

Oh, same here! lol. Just figured the best way to refute the optimizer/numbers folks was to throw some numbers at them since they look at it as an equational foregone conclusion.

I get that he's a big bad, and that he'll have an army of undead around him, and that narratively you'll have to get through the entire army in order to face off with him at all. That is all true, and all very noteworthy and great, but that doesn't change the fact that the moment the party can engage him in any real way, he'll crumple. His abilities are all right, especially the creating undead and his wand's creating undead and his boosting necrotic damage (now if only he could cast inflict wounds or blight...) but the big issue is that a 20 AC is nothing to a high level party, and it will be trivial for the players to deal 405 hp damage to take him out.

Many, many groups are going to have the players fight there way to Orcus a climactic conflict the entire campaign will build up to... only to have him die in a round or two as the archers and a Barbarian Charge savage his piddly HP. That makes a terribly inappropriate fight. His HP should be doubled so that he actually HAS enough time to use any of his abilities and to actually put the party on the ropes. I'd be surprised if a battle with Orcus lasts past the 3rd round personally. Especially if the party is prepared to deal with undead (which they should be).

Overall I've been very disappointed with the monsters this edition because they're simplistic and soft. It seems they over reacted to both 3.P and 4th edition criticisms in that they removed the complexity and book keeping of 3.5s myriad list of spell likes and abilities (at least paired it down) and 4es tactical combat, but also gutted monster HP to prevent the solo grind of early 4e play. Leaving us with legions of low hp monsters with little abilities other than to deal hp damage. Go through the MM sometime and take a look at just how few monsters do anything other than simply deal damage. Now of those monsters that can do something else, count how many are spellcasters.

As a huge 4e fan, the change in monster direction has been very disappointing and I know it's a big problem for me in adopting the switch over to this edition (I am running a 5e game for friends, but I've simply converted all my 4e monsters because they're actually interesting). There's a lot I do like in 5e (or I wouldn't be posting about it) but big bad boss monsters that are this weak is a legit concern that I wanted to voice.

 

[steeldragons]

I understand it is a legitimate concern for many, here, it seems. The "This monster is not tough [enough ergo "sucks"]" has been sung many times. There's a thread right now about the balor and how weak and easy it is. The assumptions of the game on/around which the game was "balanced" (including, but not limited to: multiclassing and feats are optional, there will be a 5 person party, etc...) simply do not play to/stand up against an optimizer/powergamey or 4e-ish style of play. That's for [you/anyone] to work out and adjust as necessary if/when you change those base assumptions. When you [again, anyone, not "you" specifically] change "the rules"....the game changes. For some this is "better" than previous editions, for some this is "worse"...Objectively, of course, it is neither. Its just different. Because it is a different game than it was.

Oh!...and as long as he is holding his wand, Orcey can cast blight every round if he wants to (no charge. As well as animate dead, so those 500HP of summoned critters, they just keep coming back) Name of the game? Get the WAND away from Orcus and you have a very GOOD chance of taking him down. Played[DMed] well, you'll never get near him if you don't separate him from his wand.

I agree, inflict wounds would have made sense also...but I think/they seem to want to be significantly more limiting with "innate magic/spell-like abilities" this go round...particularly when it comes to demons/devils....but fey too...dragons...everyone seems to have gotten an "innate magic" smackdown. But I think he has enough to cause some serious damage in actual play...Keeping in mind, of course, things never being what they seem [theorycraft] either from a "looks OK" or "over-/under-powered" perspective. It all depends on how it is played (by the DM /and/ players).

EDIT: a final thought on "...depends on how it is played..." I, personally, think that is as it should be. "The play's the thing!" and all that.

 

[Queer Venger]

Orcus is a fat pig.

Graz'zt is a sexy bro.

Team Graz'zt!!

 

[Prism]

..but the big issue is that a 20 AC is nothing to a high level party, and it will be trivial for the players to deal 405 hp damage to take him out..

I'm playing a high level character and I can't easily hit AC 20 with my +14 attack bonus, especially if I take the -5 to hit. His damage is about 21 on average as he gets +2d6 fire damage per hit but Orcus would only take 18. I generally hit twice a round and do 40 or so damage. I can action surge once and do 80.

He has awesome legendary artifact level armour which is +3 plate and a bunch of other powers. Orcus hits him on a roll of 3

Oh, and he can summon six demiliches, each of which can howl and cause the party to make several DC15 Con saves or drop to 0 hits. Our party fought one demilich last time we played and it was almost a TPK. Only my save reroll allowed me to flee

I have no idea how our party could take Orcus out before he kicks our ass

 

[Sacrosanct]

I get that he's a big bad, and that he'll have an army of undead around him, and that narratively you'll have to get through the entire army in order to face off with him at all. That is all true, and all very noteworthy and great, but that doesn't change the fact that the moment the party can engage him in any real way, he'll crumple. .

"Engaging in a real way" =/= him standing there in an arena for a full resource party to attack. To be honest, I don't personally know anyone who plays in that style. I'm sure some do, and that's fine, but you can't complain about an aspect of the game if you're playing in a style that the game isn't designed for. I haven't seen his encounter description yet, but I'd bet my still shrinkwrapped box of Holmes Basic that he is not in an area where a party can just walk in and fight him arena style.

Many, many groups are going to have the players fight there way to Orcus a climactic conflict the entire campaign will build up to... only to have him die in a round or two as the archers and a Barbarian Charge savage his piddly HP. That makes a terribly inappropriate fight.

It's also a fight that I'm betting never actually happens, so I think your criticisms are based on scenarios that won't exist. For example, I have serious doubts a barbarian can get to him in one round on a charge when he's dealing with things like a vampire spawn grappling him, or summoned wolves (by vampires) knocking him prone, or by normal attacks of all the rest of the undead anyway. And if that barbarian makes it through that gauntlet of undead and still survives? All Orcus has to do is say "die" and he's dead thanks to Power Word Kill, since I'm also betting that said barbarian making it through that horde would have taken some serious damage in doing so. Uber archers? All it takes is highly maneuverable undead like wraiths to engage them in melee, and suddenly attacking with a bow with a wraith hanging on you isn't the smartest thing. Or maybe he has a mummy lord or two there, and the entire party suddenly finds themselves making saving throw after saving throw just to not be incapacitated.

But really, it comes down to I think you're not really giving enough credit to the environment and his other abilities like summoning, because between the two, I have a really hard time even thinking your scenario is even possible unless the DM specifically plays arena style. Therefore, I think the complaints about him being too weak are overblown.

*edit* Shoot. I bet I just gave away my tactics to my players when we play this campaign.... (assuming they don't decided to join the demons and kill Drizzt because we're so sick and tired of that Mary Sue lol)