Orcus vs. Demogorgon

It's fun to speculate on these sort of white room match-ups, but I wouldn't really call it a problem. The demon lords (along with literally every character in every RPG) should be more than the sum of their stat blocks

The problem with looking purely at the start block of 5e monsters, is that they were created to simplify combat between players and to give them a chance to win, not display ALL of a monster's abilities.

While these are both true, there are two problems:

1) This isn't something that a lot of newer players know, and

2) Demogorgon being at a disadvantage (let alone not being superior) in a straight stat block match-up is a change from previous editions and existing lore.

So I understand why it bothers some people, even if it's surmountable with relative ease. Heck, it bothers me, even though I know I can easily adjust for it.

I swear, 5E has a grudge against all my favorite archfiends. Demogorgon is nerfed, and not only is Anthraxus not even detailed but they've changed "oinoloth" from his title into an average-powered species of fiend.

*shakes fist* WOOOOOOOOOTCCCCCC!!!
 

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neogod22

Explorer
While these are both true, there are two problems:

1) This isn't something that a lot of newer players know, and

2) Demogorgon being at a disadvantage (let alone not being superior) in a straight stat block match-up is a change from previous editions and existing lore.

So I understand why it bothers some people, even if it's surmountable with relative ease. Heck, it bothers me, even though I know I can easily adjust for it.

I swear, 5E has a grudge against all my favorite archfiends. Demogorgon is nerfed, and not only is Anthraxus not even detailed but they've changed "oinoloth" from his title into an average-powered species of fiend.

*shakes fist* WOOOOOOOOOTCCCCCC!!!
Yes, it really sucks how 5e marginalizes its monsters, but I think it allows them to be defeated by the players. The problem is 5e is kind of like Destiny 2. While friendly for casual players, it's a joke for the hardcore. One thing I find odd about 5e, is that 2e used to tell you environments monsters were usually found in, and the numbers they frequently were found to be with. Also the rarity of encountering them. Also, stronger monsters that usually had allies, or minions, they would put in the numbers and formations also.
 

It all comes down to the Wand. With the Wand, Orcus has the edge even without his 500 hit points of liches. If Demogorgon can get the Wand away from him, however, he's boned (heh).

Well...that depends on whether you're using the Out of the Abyss version or the nerfed Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes version. OOtA Demogorgon can exhaust Orcus's hp one round sooner than Orcus can his. But with the MToF version, Orcus still wins.

And if it comes down to trading blows? Orcus is screwed.
...

Because feeblemind is an Int save. One of the saves Orcus is not proficient in. Even with advantage, a +5 save against a DC 23 spell ain't good odds.

On trading blows, see above. The feeblemind one though, is one of Demogorgon's best abilities. If he can use it before Orcus uses his wand, and he can get Orcus into melee, and you are using the OOtA stats for Demogorgon...then he probably wins. That's a lot of ifs ands and buts though. :-S

Edit: I just figured out how Demogorgon wins. Cast telekinesis... and target Orcus's Wand. Telekinesis is an ability contest, not a saving throw, so Orcus doesn't benefit from Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance here. It's basically a coin flip whether it works, and Demogorgon can flip that coin three times before he runs out of castings. Orcus is massively, cripplingly dependent on the Wand; without it, Demogorgon whips his sorry bloated butt all over the Abyss.

This would help, but unfortunately he can only move it 30' per round, so Orcus can just chase him down and grab it. And the real problem: it only has a range of 60'.

In general, the biggest problem is that Demogorgon's gaze is virtually useless against anyone worthy of fighting him (including an adventuring party) because no one is going to not avert their eyes, which means he just semi-blinds some of the characters each round, if he wants to give up damage to do it. Casters are going to cast spells that don't require a direct target, and weapon users will just take the disadvantage and attack.

So let's take away Orcus' wand and figure out what Demogorgon really needs to defeat him, and just in general to be more effective.

What he needs the most is the ability to incapacitate creatures so they can't avert their eyes from his gaze attacks. He currently has no way of doing that, except through one of his gaze attacks *facepalm*.

If he has a way to do that with regularity, he could then try to smack critters out of the sky and go after them. Otherwise all they have to do is stay more than 150' from him (120' after he's blown his feeblemind) and they are safe.

I did some math and figured out about what the CRs come out as based on the DMG guidelines:
Demogorgon (OOtA): 28 or 29
Demogorgon (MToF): 25 or 26
Orcus: 26 (wand ignored)
Zariel: 27 (for comparison with another listed CR 26 creature)

And the sad part is that you need the tough version Demogorgon just to beat Orcus in a melee without his wand.
 

dave2008

Legend
Demogorgon wins because i, the DM, say so ;) However, by the 5e stat block demogorgon is very underpowered. They had a chance to correct this in MToF, but they went the otherway for some reason. Personally, I default to the 1e statblock when I rank relative power of fiends and then go from their.

So we have: Demogorgon - Asmodeus - Orucs (a rather distant 3rd)

demo1e.jpg

1eAsmodeus.png

1eOrcus.PNG

Notice Orcus has 40% fewer HP and a 25% weaker AC and less magic resistance too. I've revised my 5e Demogorgon accordingly
 

Dausuul

Legend
But with the MToF version, Orcus still wins.
How? Without his Wand, Orcus's DPR is half Demogorgon's. He can't even Multiattack.

This would help, but unfortunately he can only move it 30' per round, so Orcus can just chase him down and grab it.
Which is why Demogorgon moves it, then uses his "Interact with an object" to pick it up in one of his mouths. Orcus has no way to get it back.

Now, the range limitation is a big issue. Demogorgon has to start within 80 feet of Orcus to pull it off; he moves 50, uses telekinesis, grabs the wand. If Orcus can keep his distance, he can crush Demogorgon with magic and undead.
 
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How would they do against Tiamat?

She mops the floor with either of them. But then, her CR is 4 higher than theirs.

It takes a little bit longer than it otherwise might, due to their damage resistances/immunities, but barring an incredible stroke of luck, or some truly unwise decisions on her part, it's pretty close to a sure thing.
 


gyor

Legend
Yes, it really sucks how 5e marginalizes its monsters, but I think it allows them to be defeated by the players. The problem is 5e is kind of like Destiny 2. While friendly for casual players, it's a joke for the hardcore. One thing I find odd about 5e, is that 2e used to tell you environments monsters were usually found in, and the numbers they frequently were found to be with. Also the rarity of encountering them. Also, stronger monsters that usually had allies, or minions, they would put in the numbers and formations also.

My solution is to allow any cosmic deity or near deity like Archfiends, to cast any spell as a ritual, even if the spell doesn't have the ritual tag.
 

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