Orcus vs. Demogorgon

[dave2008]

I'm actually thinking of demoting Asmodeus back down to archdevil...

He is an archdevil in 5e lore. He has power equivalent to a lesser god in 5e lore, but he is not a god.

EDIT: In the MM is is a little ambiguous, but I read as not a god, but worshiped as one? What do you think:

 

[dave2008]

I hate it, look at deity abilities in 3e and 2e they feel like they have the transformative powers of a God, worthy of the title, 4e and 5e deity stats are just boring monsters that only have combat abilities, and no reality altering power, its aweful.

4e, and to some extent 5e, have different game philosphies. The stat block in 4e was not intended to represent everything a god (or monster for that matter) could do. Just what what they thought would be useful in combat. In 4e gods have the powers and abilities the DM wants them to have, they are not restricted by a stat block. That is the approach I take for 5e too.

Personally, I love a good all inclusive OP stat block myself

 

[UnknownDyson]

He is an archdevil in 5e lore. He has power equivalent to a lesser god in 5e lore, but he is not a god.

EDIT: In the MM is is a little ambiguous, but I read as not a god, but worshiped as one? What do you think:

View attachment 98586

In Forgotten Realms he is a god though, he has been for some time.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Generally speaking, I think of the stat blocks provided for Tiamat as her Avatar and then it makes much more sense.

The fact the Demonlords/Arch Devils are so vastly understated and frankly, illogical, has bothered me since OoTA. Then again, I pretty much think Solo monsters need major design changes to make them actual boss fights.

 

[dave2008]

In Forgotten Realms he is a god though, he has been for some time.

He can be whatever you want. I was just asking for interpretation on the specific 5e text. IF someone started with 5e and this is all they had, this is what Asmo would be to them.

I will need to look through MToF to see if it provided any update to his nature.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Yup! I'm with you on this one.

Loved the various conflicts that "Abishai walks into a bar, devils pissed cause they can't order it around, and what does Tiamat want here anyway?" causes.

I prefer the current lore for them. They are outside the normal Devil Hierarchy and can only be commanded by Tiamat and Archdevils. However Archdevils are risking a lot by ordering Abishai around as they may be counteracting Tiamat's or Asmodeus's orders for them. And upsetting those two is not something an Archdevil wants to do.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

That was silly, along with demoting Lolth, it just doesn't make sense, he commands Archdevils, including those that rule layers of Hell, as well as Gods like Tiamat, he's effectly one of the most powerful Gods in the game and leads the powers and legions of Hell.

Lolth rules the Demonweb pits and is the head of the Dark Seldarine, is the head God of the Drow, Yolchols, Chitines, Driders and even some evil humaniods in places like Zakhara, I can even see her aquiring Shadar Kai worshippers.

So imo both she revert to greater God status like in 4e, it makes more sense.

Lolth has never been a greater god except in 4e. And I prefer her as a lesser god so that she is actually reachable.

 

[Mirtek]

Lolth has never been a greater god except in 4e. And I prefer her as a lesser god so that she is actually reachable.

Wasn't she recognized as a greater deity at the end of the War of the Spider Queen series? That ended in 2005, thus some time before 4th edition.

 

[cbwjm]

He is an archdevil in 5e lore. He has power equivalent to a lesser god in 5e lore, but he is not a god.

EDIT: In the MM is is a little ambiguous, but I read as not a god, but worshiped as one? What do you think:

View attachment 98586

That does make me think that he has power equivalent of a lesser god without actually being one. It didn't occur to me to read the MM for more information on him.

I had previously been going off the 5e FR lore where he is still listed as a god. I got even more confused upon reading MtoF where he grants powers to cultists. It might be the whole thing where in the FR he is a god, in Greyhawk, etc, he is still "just" the pre-eminent archdevil.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

How? Without his Wand, Orcus's DPR is half Demogorgon's. He can't even Multiattack.

Yes, that's a good point. I was assuming that without his wand he'd be making punch or claw attacks in place of it (which would probably put him slightly below Demogorgon), not just twiddling his thumbs, but I was thinking about the undead creation abilities and neglected to mention that part.

Which is why Demogorgon moves it, then uses his "Interact with an object" to pick it up in one of his mouths. Orcus has no way to get it back.

Now, the range limitation is a big issue. Demogorgon has to start within 80 feet of Orcus to pull it off; he moves 50, uses telekinesis, grabs the wand. If Orcus can keep his distance, he can crush Demogorgon with magic and undead.

Yeah, the range issue is the major point. He can only grab it from 30' away, and then would have to keep wrestling with Orcus to try to get it close enough from him to take, and on rounds where he wins he can fly it 40' away from Demogorgon. Is that +1 bonus on the check for Demogorgon going to beat the extra 40' of movement when Orcus wins? I don't know. Swallowing it is a good idea when he gets it close enough. And then we he gets it that close, you'll still need to use the OOtA stats (again, assuming Orcus can punch) for a solid win.

That does make me think that he has power equivalent of a lesser god without actually being one. It didn't occur to me to read the MM for more information on him.

I had previously been going off the 5e FR lore where he is still listed as a god. I got even more confused upon reading MtoF where he grants powers to cultists. It might be the whole thing where in the FR he is a god, in Greyhawk, etc, he is still "just" the pre-eminent archdevil.

5e is both vague and contradictory on deities. I have read all of the published material about them other than whatever may be in the adventures (though I am familiar with how Tiamat works).

In addition to the unclear and possibly contradictory statements about the divine status or rank of Asmodeus, here are some other contradictions off the top of my head:
-The DMG says Greater Gods are "beyond mortal comprehension" but this is in no way backed up by anything else. Specific greater deities are described interacting with (and even potentially being threatened by) lesser deities in exactly the same way as they were described in previous editions.
-The DMG refers to demi-gods in the literal sense as children of a mortal and god. It says they aren't really divine, can't answer prayers, etc. Then every other product talks about Demigods as a type of deity just a step down from lesser deities, who can do divine stuff, respond to prayers, etc--exactly like previous editions of the game.
-Volo's Guide to Monsters says that Grazz't the Demon Lord (who is not a deity in 5e) has more power than Demigods, and that becoming one would not increase his power.

I think the first thing one has to do to make any sense out of it is to entirely ignore what the DMG says in that sidebar on divine ranks. We have Greater, Lesser, and Demi-gods. We don't have Intermediate Deities. We have other powerful beings which aren't deities but are more powerful than demigods. Make out of that what you will.

I finally just decided to create my own philosophy of how to reconcile things (which involves ignoring some elements).