Orcus vs. Demogorgon

gyor

Legend
Demogorgon wins because i, the DM, say so ;) However, by the 5e stat block demogorgon is very underpowered. They had a chance to correct this in MToF, but they went the otherway for some reason. Personally, I default to the 1e statblock when I rank relative power of fiends and then go from their.

So we have: Demogorgon - Asmodeus - Orucs (a rather distant 3rd)

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Notice Orcus has 40% fewer HP and a 25% weaker AC and less magic resistance too. I've revised my 5e Demogorgon accordingly

Since that edition Asmodeus has been promoted to Greater God, if Asmodeus comes directly for Demigorgon and Orcus together, they run the other way at this point. Luckily for them its not his style.

As for Tiamat of course she wipes the floor with them too, she's a full god, even if her stats suggests she's a 2 dimesional monster instead of a God.

For perpective Orcus isn't that much higher in CR then an Empyreans, what like only 3 CR higher? the most powerful none deity Celestial (displacing Solars from that position).

Actually an Empyrean could probably take Demogorgon out, they have an incredible flight speed, huge range for their bolts (which can be any energy type except poison, necrotic, and maybe pyschic), plus earthquake and Fire Storm.

And for defense Legendary Resistance and Magic resistance. Oh and Dispel Good and Evil.

Even if the Empyrean dies their Divine Parent just brings them back to life, to hunt Demogorgon down again.

Still people forget that CR is in relation to PCs, even designed based on monster vs. monster fights.
 
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Mirtek

Hero
Since that edition Asmodeus has been promoted to Greater God, if Asmodeus comes directly for Demigorgon and Orcus together, they run the other way at this point. Luckily for them its not his style.
Well, 5e has demoted him back down to lesser deity status. Still beats a mere demonlord
 

gyor

Legend
Well, 5e has demoted him back down to lesser deity status. Still beats a mere demonlord

That was silly, along with demoting Lolth, it just doesn't make sense, he commands Archdevils, including those that rule layers of Hell, as well as Gods like Tiamat, he's effectly one of the most powerful Gods in the game and leads the powers and legions of Hell.

Lolth rules the Demonweb pits and is the head of the Dark Seldarine, is the head God of the Drow, Yolchols, Chitines, Driders and even some evil humaniods in places like Zakhara, I can even see her aquiring Shadar Kai worshippers.

So imo both she revert to greater God status like in 4e, it makes more sense.
 

That was silly, along with demoting Lolth

Whereas I preferred it when the two of them were just a high-powered Duke of Hell and a high-powered demon lord, and neither were proper deities. (And yes, I know it's kind of splitting hairs, since some Dukes and demon lords were effectively gods, but still.)

But then, I also preferred Tiamat, Bahamut, and Vecna as ancient, powerful, and mythic beings but not remotely gods. I think it makes for more interesting stories.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I'm actually thinking of demoting Asmodeus back down to archdevil and then having Mephistopheles' plans finally come to fruition overthrowing, Asmodeus. Whether or not he manages to hold onto rulership of the Nine Hells is another matter. I'm also changing Abishai to be servants of Tiamat only, outside the hierarchy of the hells and so unable to be commanded by an Archdevil.
 

Greg K

Legend
Whereas I preferred it when the two of them were just a high-powered Duke of Hell and a high-powered demon lord, and neither were proper deities. (And yes, I know it's kind of splitting hairs, since some Dukes and demon lords were effectively gods, but still.)

But then, I also preferred Tiamat, Bahamut, and Vecna as ancient, powerful, and mythic beings but not remotely gods. I think it makes for more interesting stories.

My preferences are the same regarding all of the above.
 

neogod22

Explorer
My solution is to allow any cosmic deity or near deity like Archfiends, to cast any spell as a ritual, even if the spell doesn't have the ritual tag.
That's not useful in combat. But, as far as in past editions, gods could cast any spell they desired without needing components or spell slots. As a DM, I would say, feel free to grant any monster abilities that they normally don't come with if they are important to your story.
As for Archdevils, they can grant wishes which means they can cast the wish spell when making deals.
I understand what 5e is doing, which is basically running the monsters like 4e. They give them a simplified stat block so the DM don't get overwhelmed by the amount of spells and abilities they have if they listed them all. Which is why I would encourage any DM who wants to run a Demonlord as an end boss to look up all the abilities they had in previous editions and decide what would be best to add to the combat if anything, to make it a tough fight.
 

gyor

Legend
That's not useful in combat. But, as far as in past editions, gods could cast any spell they desired without needing components or spell slots. As a DM, I would say, feel free to grant any monster abilities that they normally don't come with if they are important to your story.
As for Archdevils, they can grant wishes which means they can cast the wish spell when making deals.
I understand what 5e is doing, which is basically running the monsters like 4e. They give them a simplified stat block so the DM don't get overwhelmed by the amount of spells and abilities they have if they listed them all. Which is why I would encourage any DM who wants to run a Demonlord as an end boss to look up all the abilities they had in previous editions and decide what would be best to add to the combat if anything, to make it a tough fight.

I hate it, look at deity abilities in 3e and 2e they feel like they have the transformative powers of a God, worthy of the title, 4e and 5e deity stats are just boring monsters that only have combat abilities, and no reality altering power, its aweful.

Its the entire reason I will never buy Tyranny of Dragon AP, Tiamat is just turned into a powerful combat monster that seems to have no other abilities then combat, nothing that screams diefic.

Serious Liches and Mummy Lords and Skull Lords feel more like Gods then Tiamat, aside from CR, its aweful.

At the very least deities should all have at will Wish.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
... I'm also changing Abishai to be servants of Tiamat only, outside the hierarchy of the hells and so unable to be commanded by an Archdevil.

Yup! I'm with you on this one.

Loved the various conflicts that "Abishai walks into a bar, devils pissed cause they can't order it around, and what does Tiamat want here anyway?" causes.
 

dave2008

Legend
Since that edition Asmodeus has been promoted to Greater God, if Asmodeus comes directly for Demigorgon and Orcus together, they run the other way at this point.

Not in my game ;) Devils and Demons aren't trying to become gods in my game. They have power equivalent to gods, so what is the point. Asmodeus has the power of an intermediate god (I still use 3 tiers of godhood) in my game and so does Demogorgon. But Demogorgon is slightly more powerful than Asmodeus, just like 1e. I do like some historical context :)

Personally, I pretty much ignore any lore that isn't in the 1e MM, MM2, FF, Deities and Demigods, or similar books in 4e. I mostly mish-mash 1e & 4e with a little 3e & 5e (just the good stuff) sprinkled in when it comes to lore.
 
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