Order of combat: Declaring defensive fighting, dodge

[big dummy]

Ok here is a question:

A wizard has already cast all his spells when he is ambushed by three orcs.

Orcs A, B and C are now attacking the Wizard. The Wizard knows he is in trouble and wants to fight Defensively and, since he has the Dodge feat, wishes to declare one of his opponents as a Dodge opponent. Hopefully his friends will come and rescue him if he can hold out a few rounds.

At what point does he get to declare his dodge opponent and his defensive fighting status, before initiative is determined, after initiaitve is rolled but before the first attack, or not until it is his initiative phase?

In other words, if the Orcs each roll a 16, 14, and 12 for initiative, and the Wizard rolls a 10, is he considered fighting defensively before they attack him, and can he have designated one of them as a dodge target, or does he not get these defensive benefits until after all three orcs attack and it is his turn?

This could apply toward other things as well I'm sure but these are the examples I ran into today.

BD

 

[Hypersmurf]

Fighting Defensively is something you do as part of an attack or full attack action, and the effects last until your next turn. If you haven't had a turn yet, you aren't fighting defensively. (Note also that this means the wizard generally can't fight defensively while taking, for example, the Cast a Spell action.)

Your Dodge opponent is designated 'during your action'. You can select a new opponent 'on any action'. It seems likely that this is the 'turn in the initiative order' use of the word 'action'; otherwise, you could use the free action 'Speak', which can be taken at any time (even when it is not your turn) to switch your designated Dodge opponent to whichever foe is currently acting.

If we assume this to be true, it means that until your turn, you cannot select (or change) your Dodge opponent. Also, the Dodge feat grants a Dodge bonus, which (unless the wizard has Uncanny Dodge) means that it does not apply while he is flat-footed... and he is flat-footed until his first turn in the initiative order.

-Hyp.

 

[big dummy]

If we assume this to be true, it means that until your turn, you cannot select (or change) your Dodge opponent. Also, the Dodge feat grants a Dodge bonus, which (unless the wizard has Uncanny Dodge) means that it does not apply while he is flat-footed... and he is flat-footed until his first turn in the initiative order.

-Hyp.

Thanks... interesting, I wasn't aware of this... so in other words if you have a lower initiative than your opponent you are always considered flat footed at the start of a melee round? What if you were prepared to fight before they even came into melee range?

What if for example, there is some dialogue taking place between people who know they are going to fight, and they are all in fighting stances.... would the person second in initiative order be considered flat foooted?

BD

 

[frankthedm]

You can change your dodge during your action as much as your DM lets you. So you could apply your Dodge to each foe as you move past them, switching your dodge target after they take thier AoO on you for you moving through thier threatened area. Once you end your action, the foe you are curently dodging cannot be changed until you act next. If you forgot to declare your dodge, you are SOL, though a kind DM might allow you apply it to the most logical foe on the feild if you honestly forget.

so in other words if you have a lower initiative than your opponent you are always considered flat footed at the start of a melee round?

No, you are always considered flat footed before your first action in combat initiative order.

What if you were prepared to fight before they even came into melee range?

Then you have been firing ranged attacks of some sort as they closed into melee range in initive order.

What if for example, there is some dialogue taking place between people who know they are going to fight, and they are all in fighting stances.... would the person second in initiative order be considered flat footed?

Yep! Though the DM is free to set the tone of battle and tone of game by calling for initiative as both parties talk so that the side that has the "initiative" has to give to that position of strenght to continue with the conversation.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What if for example, there is some dialogue taking place between people who know they are going to fight, and they are all in fighting stances.... would the person second in initiative order be considered flat foooted?

INITIATIVE

Initiative Checks: At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions). If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Inaction: Even if you can’t take actions, you retain your initiative score for the duration of the encounter.

SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

So - if everyone is aware of everyone else, there is no surprise round, but combatants are still considered flat-footed in the first regular round until their first turn in the initiative order.

As Frank notes, that doesn't necessarily mean "Until the first blow is struck" - initiative cycles may have begun earlier than that, with everyone taking non-attack actions on their turn. At the point the DM says "Let's have some initiative rolls!", that's when the battle starts, but it might not entail actual fighting for a round or three.

-Hyp.

 

[big dummy]

As Frank notes, that doesn't necessarily mean "Until the first blow is struck" - initiative cycles may have begun earlier than that, with everyone taking non-attack actions on their turn. At the point the DM says "Let's have some initiative rolls!", that's when the battle starts, but it might not entail actual fighting for a round or three.

-Hyp.

Thanks for the explanation... guys, I'm really surprised, and I must admit I really don't like that! If someone is standing in a combat stance ready for a fight, it's illogical and contrary to my own experience of fighting to think that they are going to be flat-footed. You can surprise somebody in the opening moments of a fight even if they are prepared but that is difficult to pull off, especially against an experienced opponent.

This is especially nasty in rules variants like True20 or Conan where you have armor as damage reduction.

Definately going to house-rule this differently in my campaigns.

BD

 

[frankthedm]

The difference between flat footed and not can best be described as adrenalin and that moment between thinking you are ready and actually being ready.

 

[big dummy]

The difference between flat footed and not can best be described as adrenalin and that moment between thinking you are ready and actually being ready.

Yeah I get it, I just don't buy it. If you are an experienced fighter your adrenalin is pumping the second you have a realistic chance of being in a fight, like the second someone talks crap. I don't know how many fights you've been in but I've been in more than I can count.

I can see a successful bluff drawing off your readiness, and I can definately see an inexeperienced person being sucker punched, it happens all the time. But once the hair stands up on your head, you aren't going to be 'flat footed'

BD

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Something that you might want to do to emulate this, is to give classes an Initiative Bonus that scales along with their BaB and Saves. That way, more experienced combatants are going to have an edge over less experienced ones.

Later
silver

 

[Stalker0]

Keep in mind that being flatfooted DOES NOT mean you aren't dodging, not dodging at all would be the equivalent of a 0 dexterity, or a -5 to AC. Flatfooted means you do not get the benefit of your exceptional speed and agility, which is what a dex bonus to AC represents.