Order of combat: Declaring defensive fighting, dodge

[Kormydigar]

Yeah I get it, I just don't buy it. If you are an experienced fighter your adrenalin is pumping the second you have a realistic chance of being in a fight, like the second someone talks crap. I don't know how many fights you've been in but I've been in more than I can count.

I can see a successful bluff drawing off your readiness, and I can definately see an inexeperienced person being sucker punched, it happens all the time. But once the hair stands up on your head, you aren't going to be 'flat footed'

BD

I agree 100% That is why the flat footed thing only works in suprise situations in my games. I laugh when picturing a field battle with about 12 or so combatants on each side glaring at each other, readying weapons, ect. then being suddenly "flat footed" as soon as melee actually begins.

 

[BadMojo]

I agree 100% That is why the flat footed thing only works in suprise situations in my games. I laugh when picturing a field battle with about 12 or so combatants on each side glaring at each other, readying weapons, ect. then being suddenly "flat footed" as soon as melee actually begins.

It does seem kind of odd. For what it's worth, I always interpreted it as being aware of your opponent but not quite knowing how they're going to be coming at you. You can defend yourself but you're at a disadvantage against a quicker foe. It still doesn't explain why you aren't "flat footed" again when you engage a different opponent in the same melee, so uhhh yeah.

Anyway, it's worth noting that one of the Combat Form feats in the PHBII allows you to change your dodge bonus to a new opponent as an Immediate Action and it goes on to mention that it normally is a free action on your turn.

This specific feat wouldn't help in the OP's situation since you need to make a successful attack to enter Combat Focus, but it does illustrate how the Dodge feat works.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Yeah I get it, I just don't buy it. If you are an experienced fighter your adrenalin is pumping the second you have a realistic chance of being in a fight, like the second someone talks crap.

BD

I agree with you. And this is why any experienced fighter would take the Combat Reflexes feat.

I also wanted to add... You may know that something is about to happen, but you never know when or what the opponent is going to attack you with.

 

[frankthedm]

I agree with you. And this is why any experienced fighter would take the Combat Reflexes feat.

Tentacled Horrors like it too!

 

[glass]

Thanks for the explanation... guys, I'm really surprised, and I must admit I really don't like that! If someone is standing in a combat stance ready for a fight, it's illogical and contrary to my own experience of fighting to think that they are going to be flat-footed.

If someone is 'standing in a combat stance, ready for a fight', then initiative has been rolled and their turn has come up and they are no longer flat footed.

Somone who is flat footed is not yet in that stance. Bear in mind that although it may be quite a long time in real time as the orcs have their goes, in your example the wizard is only flat footed for a second or two at most. It is impossible to define exactly how long six initiative ticks is, because there is no fixed number of ticks in a round, but it is not long!

In short, I don't think your houserule is necessary. You just need a bit of care in when you call for initiative.


glass.

 

[Bront]

Fighting Defensively is something you do as part of an attack or full attack action, and the effects last until your next turn. If you haven't had a turn yet, you aren't fighting defensively. (Note also that this means the wizard generally can't fight defensively while taking, for example, the Cast a Spell action.)

Your Dodge opponent is designated 'during your action'. You can select a new opponent 'on any action'. It seems likely that this is the 'turn in the initiative order' use of the word 'action'; otherwise, you could use the free action 'Speak', which can be taken at any time (even when it is not your turn) to switch your designated Dodge opponent to whichever foe is currently acting.

If we assume this to be true, it means that until your turn, you cannot select (or change) your Dodge opponent. Also, the Dodge feat grants a Dodge bonus, which (unless the wizard has Uncanny Dodge) means that it does not apply while he is flat-footed... and he is flat-footed until his first turn in the initiative order.

-Hyp.

I agree with pretty much everything Hyp says here. So if the poor wizard looses initiative, he's probably hosed. If he wins, he can declair one of them his dodge target, and fight defensively or take a full defensive action.

On a side note, what kind of wizard has Dodge as a feat?

 

[wedgeski]

Be very careful about changing the flat-footed rules. Perhaps the problem is in the nomenclature: 'flat-footed' does not literally mean standing there like a lemon while someone hits you, it just means that the person who beat your Initiative roll got the drop on you. In a 'tense coversation' scenario, perhaps he lulled you into a false sense of security, or distracted you with his body language (or one of his friends did). Most PC's for whom Initative is important (Rogues, for example), will have extremely high bonuses and are unlikely to be beaten except by the whims of the dice, but even an experienced fighter who is 'ready for a fight' is not immune to distraction, or to simply having a bad day. (Besides which, as RigaMortus2 said, he will almost certainly have taken steps to minimise the risk.)

It's not really about awareness, either, as that simply dictates whether there is a surprise round or not.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I don't know how many fights you've been in but I've been in more than I can count.

Maybe you should spend some ranks on diplomacy.

 

[Kormydigar]

'flat-footed' does not literally mean standing there like a lemon while someone hits you, it just means that the person who beat your Initiative roll got the drop on you.

If you are standing there exchanging insults and spoiling for a fight and the guy in front of you just whacks you for sneak attack damage then you must be just standing there like a lemon. I don't mean to sound like a crotchety old fogey, but back in my day you had to work for your backstab damage by really sneaking up on someone. Grumpy old man out.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Thanks for the explanation... guys, I'm really surprised, and I must admit I really don't like that!

Then you'll really want to stay away from Iron Heroes.
Being flat-footed in that is extremely nasty. One of the nice features is that it makes ambushes super-deadly at every level, even epic. A typical level 20 Defense in Iron Heroes would look like this: 26 normal, 23 touch, 13 flat-footed.

As for True 20, there are enough bonuses to your defense that are not dodge-dependant that defense scores are similar to D&D AC (i.e. high normal defense, almost as good FF defense).

In a more helpful vein, if you want to represent the "everyone's aware, no one is flat-footed" type of fight then roll initiative when everyone is still in the middle of the conversation, not at the part where they launch attacks. That way they all spend a few rounds bantering before the stabbing begins, eliminating the possibility of being flat-footed.