Order of Operations for Ongoing/Start of Turn effects

[renau1g]

Just wondering what people do to adjudicate the start of turn/ongoing effects order of operations. Most times it doesn't matter what order they happen in, but sometimes it does.

Here's an example:

Cleric was at 7 hp after the enemy went.

Effects in play. Consecrated Ground (which he is in), Longtooth Regen, River of Life, and the enemy's aura dealing 10 damage at start of turn.

Ongoing damage happens at start of turn. As does Regeneration. As does the Aura.

So in this case, if the aura triggers first, the cleric is dying. If the Consecrated Ground goes first, he can save against River of Life to avoid that ongoing damage (keeping him from dropping if aura is in effect last).

I adjudicated based on the effects start, so the Consecrate Ground was cast first, then River of Life, then the shifting, then the aura last.

What are others thoughts?

 

[keterys]

There is no rule restricting the order that effects occur in, so the cleric applies all start of turn effects in whatever order they wish to resolve them.

 

[fba827]

there are no hard and fast rules that i'm aware of (there was some previous discussion on if the bullet points in the original PHB happen in that exact order or if those are all happening simultaneously -- so your interpretation is as good as anyone else's).

My personal interpretation tends to be: have them happen simultaneously... so if taking ongoing damage and regeneration, then subtract one from the other and take take the greater of the two as the net effect happening at once. Or the other interpretation I have seen/heard of used frequently and am also very open to is: use the order most beneficial to the affected creature whose turn you are resolving at that moment.

keeping it in order of which was cast first may just be "an extra thing to keep track of" and as you get up in level, you'll notice a lot more conditional things being tossed around to the point of it being a bother to remember timing of each one... so i don't think you'll want to set that precedent if you ever expect to be getting in higher tier play.

In the grand scheme, i think you'll find that "usually" the exact timing doesn't matter. there are only some corner cases where someone would get bloodied or unconscious that would trigger different conditions. so find something simple and run with it.

 

[Lenaianel]

rules compendium p197

the structure of a turn - the start of a turn :

Any order : the creature can choose the order in wich things happen at the start of its turn. For instance, if the creature has regeneration and is taking ongoing damage, it can choose to take the ongoing damage and then use its regeneration or the other way around

 

[renau1g]

Hmmm....not sure I agree too much with their rules, seems a bit silly to allow the creature to select to be hurt first or second, but for the corner cases it should work

 

[malraux]

Hmmm....not sure I agree too much with their rules, seems a bit silly to allow the creature to select to be hurt first or second, but for the corner cases it should work

Because the order does matter, creature chooses is the simplest. The two other alternatives would be some assigned ordination to every effect causing power in the game (clearly madness) or order applied to the creature (or the reverse). But the latter would require extra tracking, arguing about when the zone effect was applied, etc. Because, as you say, these are corner cases, the rule for dealing with it should be easy to remember and simple to apply. Creature chooses, IMO, fits that pretty well.

 

[BobTheNob]

I like to "rule by reward". If the player has picked the right class, with the right feats and powers, I like to reward the investment. Its like honoring the players decisions.

Therefore I would rule in the players favor on that basis. Other than that, I think I would adjudicate on a case by case.

Im not convinced of the wisdom of letting the creature (/player) decide. To me this decision process falls into the lap of the DM as the only impartial person at the table. That above quote I do find odd.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah I agree with you Bob. I feel the DM should be the one making the call, even if I'm likely to err on the PC's side, it seems far too game-y to let the PC make the call. I will likely just develop a method of tracking that's easier going forward, like this:

1) Ongoing damage
2) Regen
3) etc...

So that way it's easy to remember, especially as we get into paragon.

 

[keterys]

It's less gamery to have a list you have to refer to and keep straight, than to just let whoever it is cope on their own?

I mean, if you want to house rule it, go nuts, but there are other things I'd house rule first that had a greater effect on the game than just a gut "that doesn't feel right" without creating more rules clutter.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

One thing to keep in mind is damage types that that "shut off" regeneration can act wierdly if you allow the PC/creature to choose the order.

For example, if you have a troll (fire shuts off regen) get hit by a power that does radiant damage then ongoing fire, if you let the creature choose the order it can regenerate while being on fire - which is a bit odd IMHO.