Order of the Stick 596!

[Storm Raven]

I wasn't talking about the oots universe specifically, but I suppose i should. Where do you get "the crimes a BBEG is guilty of are generally punishable by death in the OotS universe" from? Nale went to prison.

When Elan (thought to be Nale) and Thog were imprisoned in Cliffport, they were to be put on trial, with the suggestion that they would be executed. Miko announced that the penalty for treason in the Sapphire City was death (although her evaluation of the situation that led her to kill Shojo was entirely wrong, but that doesn't matter much here, since V's evaluation with respect to Kubota was entirely correct, and V isn't a paladin).

Belkar wasn't murdered on the spot for killing that guard.

No he wasn't. Of course, at the time he had been wrongfully imprisoned by an extremely lawful order of paladins, and was supposed to be put on trial. By, you know, a bunch of guys for whom upholding the law is a class requirement. V isn't under that same restriction.

In fact, I think in oots, location matters, and it matters quite a bit. I'm trying to think, but other than Belkar (and the war, obviously), I can't recall once that the party has killed a sentient being inside a town/city.

Given that they are rarely inside a town or city, it doesn't happen often. The adventurers Belkar hired in Cliffport sure seemed willing to kill inside a city though.

Some times in the wilderness and ruins/dungeons, but they seem more keen to take enemies alive when in the midst of civilization.

Because usually Roy is with them, and he is lawful. Durkon too.

Why does this matter? Elan had Kubota on the Azurite's ship. For all purposes, this is just as much a society as Azure City was, and I'm sure they have laws they uphold. I'd be willing to bet that giving accused persons some sort of trial, like the law had it in Azure City, is one of those laws. That may be an important difference. Kubota could have been given to the rightful authorities, and V murdered him in an area with laws against that.

Which mitigates against the lawfulness of V's actions, not the goodness or non-goodness of them. Not following the rules of a lawful society with respect to things like process is acting non-lawfully, but also non-evilly so long as the end is not evil - in this case, the end sought was to eliminate a determined major villain in a manner that was similar to that which the law probably would have given had it been justly applied.

I wasn't comparing the events of oots to that issue, I was comparing your line of ethical argument, being stuck on the chaotic parts of the action and somehow thinking that because it's chaotic it's not also possibly evil. In both situations, both you and that player were basically arguing that because the murder was "chaotic" -- in his case random violence, in the strip's case not wanting to deal with legal proceedings -- that's the end of it. No consideration on the good/evil axis. That side note had nothing to do with the comic itself.

And it was completely irrelevant, since that isn't my argument. I think you missed the entire point.

It's not an entirely valid metagame reason. Being good isn't easy, and the good choice is often not the expedient, simple, or "fun" one. Just because V found killing Kubota to be more efficient does not make the act non-evil.

Yes, I think you did miss it. V determined that Kubota was guilty of heinous crimes - because Elan had taken him prisoner. In the OotS universe this is a valid way to evaluate culpability, since storytelling conventions are not merely conventions in the OotS world, but are laws that govern the bahaviour of certain individuals - including Elan. Based upon this metagame determination V took matters into his own hands and meted out justice. The fact that it was quicker than a trial was a benefit V sought, but it doesn't change the fact that the just result was achieved, and that V knew he was doing so (as he would not have killed Kubota unless Elan had him tied up, revealing Kubota's status as a major villain).

The difference between lawful and chaotic in this case is process. But the ends (the moral outcome) is the same. V evaded the process (a chaotic act) to reach the same end a fair and just trial would have achieved: Kubota sentenced for his crimes (a non-evil result). You are hung up on the idea that lawful authority should be obeyed and trials with due process should be given to accused criminals. Those aren't "good" concepts, they are lawful concepts. if V had killed Kubota because he was annoying him with no other justificiation, that would be evil - but V didn't V killed Kubota because Elan had taken him prisoner, signifying his status as a major villain in the story.

I'm not saying this one act made V evil, but (s)he did commit an evil act. And yes, a chaotic one, too.

Chaotic, yes. Evil, no.

You need to work on why we have trials, and why we think lawful authority is worth paying attention to. It isn't because we think those things are morally good (according to a number of important historical figures, including several founders of the U.S., both are evil in and of themselves, but are necessary evils).

 

[WizarDru]

Considedring that V's next action in the current strip was to threaten to kill Elan, I'm finding it more plausible to assume that V is sliding or has slid into Evil, doing the wrong thing for all the right reasons. You don't have to be 'Ha! Evil RULEZ!' to be evil...sometimes you can be evil for doing evil acts, regardless of how you justify them.

V has reached a point where his research is more important than the people he works with...and he's reached a 'forest for the trees' viewpoint, where he doesn't care if all of the exiles from Azure City die, as he believes that his goal and his research are more important than they are. By justifying his goals as 'Only I can save the world', he's becoming as bad as Azure city's current rulers.