Orders of Knighthood - help/discussion request

[gizmo33]

Re Shogun - Thrin would love for Ulfius to become Shogun ("Marshall" or similar) to a figurehead Emperor. The Japanese analogy is interesting, thanks, though my political stuff in the game comes more from Machiavelli. - Tarkane to a large extent is based off Mussolini.

Maybe it could still work - Ulfius steps in and gains control of the armed forces of the Overkingdom in response to some "great menace". Of course Ulfius maintains that Tarkane is really the rightful ruler of the kingdom and the mouthpiece of Odin, but in practice Ulfius takes on an increasing role in rulership - eg. ambassadors now visit Ulfius because the Overlord is "too busy" with his religious duties. I think all politics of any era can be seen as Machiavellian

Re Electors - in the Norse part of my campaign world King Sigurd of Trafalgis was chosen as king by a Council of Jarls in just this fashion, I guess the Elector system might have had Norse/Teutonic roots? That would explain why it seems so un-Roman.

Yes, in fact Tacitus IIRC was one of the first to note the sort of "rulership by consensus" tendencies of the Germanic tribes. Apparently rattling their spears and shields was the favorite way to approve/disapprove in a council.

The Jarls of Trafalgis would demand the right to name the next king after Sigurd too, good point to bear in mind...

I was reading about the Polish-Lithuanian confederacy which was similar to the Elector system but even more de-centralized. My view of human nature/history is that rulers always try to keep as much power as possible, so I think it's highly likely that the Jarls would seek to codify their role as electors of the King - especially in this sort of "Teutonic" culture where a king ruling without favor of the ancient and pretigious noble families would be seen as inappropriate.

In the Overkingdom by contrast there's pretty much a void when it comes to high-level representative institutions, it's a post-colonial state

Is this because of design, or have you just not gotten around to detailing certain parts of the Overkingdom? I'm not quite sure of what "high level representative institutions" means. As you've said, there seems to be no strong, independant source of clerical authority at this point (eg. no Oracle of Delphi). Do the cities have charters and rule themselves? Do the old governors of the provinces weild power as feudal lords? Were there old tribal organizations that would have surivived in part during the empire? (tribal bonds AFAIK are often ethnic and not easily dissolved when there is a change in political power)

 

[S'mon]

"Not wanting an all-out deity war" is something I can't imagine a PC deity being too concerned about in general - I suppose that your player in this case is pretty modest in their deity goals.

No, Thrin is not modest... yesterday Craig commented that he was happy to wait until after Ragnarok for Thrin to become ruler of Asgard... but all the deity PCs who didn't care about such things, are dead. Often by the hand of their own deific superiors. Only the deities who know to work within the rules survive for long.

 

[S'mon]

I think there is a whole spectrum of deity intervention between apocolypse spells and non-involvement. Your reasoning is pretty typical for people's campaigns, but I've always been somewhat uncomfortable with it. A deity could theoretically blip onto the Prime, throw a few meteor-swarms at an opposing army, and leave. Or they could grant all of their high level followers magic items, or whatever.

Deities IMC often do grant their greatest followers magic items. As for 'a few meteor swarms', that would (a) have little impact on a serious army and (b) take several rounds, plenty of time for hostile deities to respond.

 

[S'mon]

When you say "retired NPCs" I suppose you mean retired adventurers?

I meant "retired PCs" - PCs no longer being played by their players.

 

[S'mon]

Is this because of design, or have you just not gotten around to detailing certain parts of the Overkingdom? I'm not quite sure of what "high level representative institutions" means.

Um, good question. I was thinking groups of nobles and such. Now it's actually extremely complicated - many areas of the Overkingdom have their own local representative institutions, like city councils or the Council of the Scornic League, a western defense/trading alliance which has a population of over 5 million and joined the Overkingdom 4 years ago. But there are no pan-national institutions like the Roman Senate.


From the Ea home page:

http://www.geocities.com/s.t.newman/Ea.htm

"The Overkingdom of Imarr (16.2 million)
(Tarkane): greatest kingdom of southern Ea, the Overkingdom rules many realms, from the conquered (2738-39) land of Imgart Province in the north, through Gordava (conquered 2735), the Coastal Alliance cities (inc 2736) and the recently incorporated (M11 2739) Scornic League territories in the west, to the great port city of Doskan (conquered 2736) in the south. The Overkingdom's capital is ancient Imarr, by far the greatest city of Ea and said to hold over a million people within its high walls. Population includes: ca 5.2 million Scornic League (1.4 million Northwoods, 1.7 million Vantouche, 1.2 million Scorn'el & Deepwater, 0.9 million southern including 0.125 million Borderlands Duchy), 1 million Imgart Province, 3.2 million Archduchy of Colladel, 1.2 million Imarr & suburbs, 3.5 million Heartlands, 1 million Gordavan March, 1 million Doskan March, 0.1 million Sorgani tribesmen in Sorganzorro marsh & Coast Range mts. Allied or client realms include the Kingdom of Trafalgis, Mount Fire & the Sea of Dust, and the Heavenly Mountains. Slaveholding is very common in most of the Overkingdom, which is culturally a mix of classical Roman and various Medieval European, although Thrinians and many Crisans oppose this practice. The Northwoods around Relain is Crisan, with little slavery and a strong fear of magic/witchcraft. The default Imarran culture is mostly somewhat patriarchal, although female warriors are quite common in some areas such as Doskan. The Overkingdom has countless gods; the traditional patron god of the city of Imarr itself is the Sky God Oloron, commonly identified with the Norse Odin. Languages: Imarran Common, & many other."

 

[S'mon]

As you've said, there seems to be no strong, independant source of clerical authority at this point (eg. no Oracle of Delphi). Do the cities have charters and rule themselves? Do the old governors of the provinces weild power as feudal lords? Were there old tribal organizations that would have surivived in part during the empire? (tribal bonds AFAIK are often ethnic and not easily dissolved when there is a change in political power)

Clerical authority - yes, there are churches/temples which vie for influence, but none that have authority over the Overking while being independent of him. In this setting gods tend to be vying for power with each other and are rarely seen as neutral arbitors, except for a very few like the Norns/Fates.

Many of the cities have charters - in fact over half the Overkingdom joined it voluntarily rather than being conquered, and all those incorporated areas have charters setting out duties & rights. The old Albine administrative government is gone, there are tribal organisations in remote areas but these are not consequential. Cities and local lords administer demesnes of varying size, usually as part of a larger area, in a feudal hierarchy with the Overking at the top. So eg the city of Endhome rules a small domain, it is part of the Coastal Alliance of cities within the Archduchy of Colladel which is within the Overkingdom of Imarr. The city basically runs its own affairs - more Holy Roman than Roman - sending taxes to the Archduke, who sends taxes to the Overking. Endhome can band together with the other Coastal Alliance cities to bargain with Archduke Ulfius over tax levels etc.

 

[MonsterMash]

Re Electors - in the Norse part of my campaign world King Sigurd of Trafalgis was chosen as king by a Council of Jarls in just this fashion, I guess the Elector system might have had Norse/Teutonic roots? That would explain why it seems so un-Roman. The Jarls of Trafalgis would demand the right to name the next king after Sigurd too, good point to bear in mind....

Some stuff on the Electors of the Holy Roman Empire here and here

 

[S'mon]

Very in interesting stuff Dave, thanks. I see the Elector system did indeed develop as a restriction on the initially democrat form of choosing a ruler among the Franks & other Germans. IMC we currently have an absolute monarch of a decentralised feudal realm, the problem with this setup is that while the Overking's power is theoretically unlimited, any time he tries to raise taxes the realms can point to their charters of incorporation to deny him. And taking military action against such a domain would be difficult because the other domains would see it as a threat to their own charters. So I can see a future monarch potentially wanting to create some kind of Imperial Council that could pass measures by majority vote, as a means to centralise power and extract more taxes from the domains by an appeal to majoritarian democratic legitimacy, something like how things developed in England after the Norman conquest.

 

[MonsterMash]

It's been an interesting thread for campaign background for me really. And it does make me think about things I'd like to try in a homebrew setting as well.

 

[glass]

The Empire in WFRP has a system of Elector Counts and Dukes. Not historical, obviously, but it might be worth looking at.

Just thought I'd mention it.


glass.