Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[TerraDave]

Become the change you wish to see in the discussion.

I can text. And the pattern is holding.

 

[Smackpixi]

I find the critique that Chinese and Japanese cultures are all mixed up into one not as big of a problem as it’s made out to be. Same with spinning up Aztec and Mayan and Incas…or whatever others you wish to mash. Greek and Roman often get rolled, all of Europe gets rolled together and it’s not an issue, or at least its not one anyone is sensitive to.

The western mish mash draws on appendix N type stuff and mashes even more and voila, D&D. The unfortunate problem with past OA type stuff is that it draws on Western takes on other cultures from appendix N type stuff. It should draw on the pulp literature from those cultures, that stuff exists, and could better inspire someone versed in said culture to do a mish mash of it.

The problems arise from people outside a real history doing their take on it and mish mashing it with sorta stuff they think is more or less the same. Publish that today, and it’s not gonna fly. There is, at least from me, a hunger for regional D&D mish mashes from all over the planet by people with a cultural knowledge to do it.

As always, do whatever you want in your game, no one wants to stop you.

 

[TerraDave]

Korean if someone just overlayed Japanese culture over my own, especially knowing that history. Yikes. And it happens all. The. Time.

I am not so sure that cultural mashups--that are clearly fantasy--are such a problem. Its an industry in Japan, consumed in much of the rest of Asia. Even some Koreans might be ok with it.

 

[Hussar]

For my own education, can I ask for a few points of clarity on the D&D community's desires?

•In some threads, I've seen it suggested that it is cultural appropriation to whole-cloth use a realworld culture as inspiration for writing -and that mixing and matching things (i.e. dwarves being Scottish Vikings or tribal orcs being a mix of African and North American Native). But, here, I'm reading that mixing is viewed negatively because it does not respect real-world animosity between cultures. So, which approach -mixing or not mixing- is seen as better for the purposes of writing fantasy material?

[/QUOTE]

The issue is complicated and there is not a one size fits all answer.

•I often see it said that voices of people from the cultures in question have authority on determining whether something is offensive or not. In many ways, I agree with that. However, I'm also alive during a time when Matt Damon was criticized (by what mostly appears to be European-Americans) for doing a Chinese film, despite the fact that he was specifically wanted for the film to suit Chinese audiences.

The issue is complicated and there is not a one size fits all answer.

So, as a general rule, how much weight do you feel a member of a specific culture/group has when discussing an issue related to said group -and does that weight change determined by whether something is or is not seen as offensive?
How does (or doesn't) that apply differently when someone has mixed heritage? (I ask because a reason I stopped going to rpg.net is because I understood a moderator's response to something I said to mean that my opinion was seen as less valid due to not counting as enough of the community being discussed.)

The issue is complicated and there is not a one size fits all answer.

•What do you feel are some of the most egregious abuses found in OA?

I think I own the D&D 3.5 version, but I mostly bought it just to have more monsters to use at the time. Present day, I've converted a little bit of the material to a GURPS hand I run.

If I am unknowingly doing something offensive, I would like to be aware of it and possibly get suggestions about how I might still use the content but do so in a more respectful manner.

From memory - using Japanese bushido code for the entire culture. Never minding it being anachronistic, it's also incredibly out of place. Using Japanese language for many things. Why are fighters called bushi in OA, for example. There is a host of things like this. Again, if we turned out a Player's Handbook where the UK was rewritten giving it all German names, the classes were named in German, the mythology mostly derived from Germany, Scotland ceases to exist and is treated as simply the same as the rest of the country, and this was presented as a European Adventures book, that's essentially what OA is.

And, again, what you do in your home game is no one's concern but your own. No one should ever care what you do or how you play and anyone who says that they do can go soak their head. But, we should hold the publishers to a considerably higher standard.

 

[Hussar]

I am not so sure that cultural mashups--that are clearly fantasy--are such a problem. Its an industry in Japan, consumed in much of the rest of Asia. Even some Koreans might be ok with it.

Not really. While sure, Japanese manga is consumed all over, by and large it doesn't overlay Japanese culture on other countries.

Evangalion (to pick a recent example) wasn't set in China after all.

 

[TerraDave]

Not really. While sure, Japanese manga is consumed all over, by and large it doesn't overlay Japanese culture on other countries.

Evangalion (to pick a recent example) wasn't set in China after all.

But there are plenty that are, or use some well known Chinese legend or element.

And so much cultural mash-up. Very, very good mashup.

 

[Aldarc]

I find the critique that Chinese and Japanese cultures are all mixed up into one not as big of a problem as it’s made out to be. Same with spinning up Aztec and Mayan and Incas…or whatever others you wish to mash. Greek and Roman often get rolled, all of Europe gets rolled together and it’s not an issue, or at least its not one anyone is sensitive to.

I can't say that I agree. There has been pushback against lumping Aztecs, Mayans, Incans, etc. all together into a mash: such an approach is essentially a Euro-American colonialist enterprise. I recall pushback against that here by a poster from (I believe) Mexico.

Moreover, the quiet trend over the past ten to twenty years in European TTRPGs has been pushing back against the American homogenized-approach to European fantasy. There have been a lot more native European TTRPG publishers who are publishing their own vision for European fantasy, often focused on their own country/region's fantasy folklore or fantastical sensibilities.

 

[Random Task]

This is pretty much spot on.

If OA had simply billed itself as Fantasy Japan, they would have gone a long way. I mean, IIRC, in the foreward to the book, one of the inspirations is James Clavell's Shogun. Which would be fine and would have worked.

But, they then took Japanese culture, language and various other bits and bobs, erased China and templated Japan over China. Given the 20th century history of these two countries, that's a REALLY bad idea. Never minding that Oriental basically skipped anything that wasn't Japan or China - poor Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia and whatnot get a really short shrift. HIstorically, the Khmer empire (what is now Cambodia) would fit much better in the sort of quasi-historical period of D&D. The site of Angkhor Wat was one of the largest cities in the world at the time.

But, yeah, it would be like taking a map of Great Britain, overlaying it with German names, German culture, religion and history and then calling the book European Adventures.

Not something that would fly.

I'm looking at page 136 and 137 in the 1E book and Kara-Tur is basically composed of two different versions of China and two different versions of Japan at this time. There is also an enthusiastic foreward from David "Zeb" Cook wherein he talks about how much he enjoyed doing the research for the book and that it was mostly focused on China and Japan. He says he focused slightly more on Japan because there was more written about the periods of Japanese history he thought were interesting for roleplaying compared to the interesting roleplaying periods of Chinese history.

 

[TheSword]

I think we have to accept that there is a lower bar for historical accuracy in a product for entertainment than in an academic work. Historical fiction (and inspired fiction) has always allowed an amount of artistic license… don’t get me started on The Tudors or it’s sister show The Borgias. Both of which I love but are both riddled with historical liberties.

I don’t believe that mixing and cherry picking historical inspirations is a Eurocentric trait. It happens in lots of countries. The Japanese use of European medieval inspirations in animation and computer games being a good example.

I don’t think there is anything unhealthy about fascination with the great civilizations of old, romanticizing these and wanting to create stories in those times and places. Be it Egypt, Rome, China, Japan, Mezzo-America, or medieval England. These historical times are part of the world’s legacy, and do not belong to any individual group.

While I understand the desire for reasons of identity and nationalism to want your country’s unique features celebrated and the nuances made clear and distinct. At the same time, I do think this has to come from within. You shouldn’t expect other countries to promote your own nationalism.

As countries grow their own industries and produce quality works that have further reach beyond their own borders we see products like the excellent show, The Kingdom with its quasi-historical take on Korea. There will always be appetite for tales of foreign lands no matter which country you live in. If people don’t think a body of work is accurate or representative enough then they should find, encourage or support someone to make something better. Not to criticize what other people have done without a replacement.

Back to the OP in fairness to Danial Kwan, that is exactly what he does, both in his own publishing and his work as a consultant.

 

[GreyLord]

From here:


Well here is the thing, did Kwan have a point? Sure people might say "let us have fun" but I suspect that to Asian and Muslim characters, seeing their culture reduced to a theme-park version would be turned off for understandable reasons.

Off course:





Well here's the thing, they are playing with the idea that all Asian cultures are interchangeable. Korean, Chinese, and Japanese cultures are all mixed together and considering their history with each other, is something they wouldn't like. Now saying "western middle ages" is disingenuous since much of Fantasy is based on J.R.R Tolkien and his fictional version of BRITAIN in general. It's not based on a stereotype of Europe as a whole, Middle Ages or otherwise, and either way, this is simply going into tu quoque territory. And really, you are losing quite a bit of nuance and storytelling ideas by doing this.

But what are your thoughs...was it that bad back in ye olden times?

From those that I know who Read or Played the game from Japan (or both)...

NO.

In fact, the most offensive thing were the Americans (I suppose that would be the U.S. and Canada).

Oriental Adventures (1e and 3e) was the ONLY D&D RPG product that had a decent amount of input from actual people from Asia (Specifically Japan) since it's creation up to...well...up to...today.

There were actually some who were VERY PROUD of the representation of Japan in the game itself and the product.

The 3e product that tried to do a similar thing had also had some representation, but was not as well accepted.

BOTH were more of a Japanese adventure type game than Oriental. This perhaps was the biggest problems those outside of Japan had with the product...if they even KNEW of the products existence.

The REAL problem arose because there is a RIFT between the culture of Asian-Americans from North America and the rest of the East Asians in the World. It hovors mostly around the usage of the word Oriental. This word has become offensive in it's use to some of the younger generation in the United States and Canada (though, I should note, it is NOT universal and some of the younger generation that takes offense at the word's usage is genuinely confused or bothered that others in their generation and much of the older generations of Asian-Americans DO NOT share their problems with the word Oriental).

It is actually a hot topic of debate in some areas of Asian-American culture these days between those who take offense at the word and those who do not.

What makes it worse is that there are those from East Asia that feel that North Americans are being offensive TO EAST ASIANS by the rejection of the word Oriental. Many of them would rather be known as Oriental rather than Asian due to the word Asian lumping them in with other groups from Asia (Indians, Pakistanis, Arabians, etc) who they do not want to be confused with.

It makes for a very confusing and culturally complex mess. Because of this, it is probably best to simply stay away from the entire thing.

At the time OA was created it was actually rather respectful (in relation to most products of the time) in it's treatment of Japanese culture. If anything was offensive it is the same offense that Americans do by labeling everything from East Asia as Asian rather than being more specific. The offense would be that it tried to apply Japanese culture to the entirety of East Asia rather than simply calling itself Nippon or Japanese Adventures. 3e also basically did the same mistake, but in some ways made it worse by trying to incorporate a FEW items from the rest of East Asia but conglomerating it into one whole under the main umbrella which represented more of a Japanese stereotype culture.

Offensive though? AT the time, as I said, it was perhaps one of the more respectful items regarding Japanese culture that was put out. It actually took representatives of the actual culture that they were trying to represent and took their input and playtesting of the material. The only other one that really had Asian representatives in any sort of influence that I know of in regards to D&D was the 3e OA as well.

The biggest problem today, as I pointed up above, is the RIFT between American culture and the rest of East Asian culture. The Japanese have generally been gracious and excited about things that promote their culture in any sense of the word to the rest of the world, and happy to see the rest of the world embrace things that are Japanese. Some of this unfortunately brought a bunch of racism by others Americans against some Asian-Americans in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. This type of racism put some bad tastes in many Asian-American's mouths for items which are like OA, or other things which they see as stereotypes or imitations of East-Asian Culture.

I do not know how to bridge this type of Rift, but I think the distaste that some have exhibited (not just to OA, but many items, including Old Hong Kong films MADE by Hong Kong film companies, Chinese cultural books and travel guides WRITTEN by people FROM China who speak English, and of course, many of the Hollywood movies and shows made by white guys in Hollywood...OA is just a SMALL item that falls under the entire cultural displeasure denounced by the American Culture today) towards these types of materials vs. the culture of that from East Asia is creating a valley of controversy that is not easily crossed today.

It is hard to please both sides of the equation, but as D&D is FAR more popular in the US than East Asia, normally the American audiences are the ones being catered to.

I have several Japanese-American players and one Chinese-American player that I deal with in the various groups I play with. None of them have problems with OA (and in fact one Japanese individual AUTHORED an OA for 5e if that says anything about their take on OA). Their biggest problem with OA is actually NOT with the book itself, but with those who are supposedly from their own racial background making a big deal about it and saying that they represent all the rest of a very varied and mixed cultural background. They seem to agree there are many different reactions out there, but they get tired of everyone painting everyone from their background with the same brush, which includes trying to dictate what they must or must not like in their personal lives and hobbies.

They are OLDER players though, and I see that there is some disconnect between their views and younger Americans regarding what is considered racist or offensive these days and what is not...BUT...of all the things I state, this last view is the one you should take most with a grain of salt as it is MY OWN view and not theirs.